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-   -   Stats for 1984 W final (McEnroe-Connors) (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=171490)

krosero 12-17-2007 05:54 PM

Stats for 1984 W final (McEnroe-Connors)
 
Score: 6-1, 6-1, 6-2
(22 games)

The match lasted 1 hour 20 minutes.

McEnroe had 9 aces and 0 doubles.
Connors had 0 aces and 5 doubles.

(NBC gave McEnroe 11 aces because they counted two serves nicked by Connors' racquet).


McEnroe made 25 winners apart from service: 7 FH, 9 BH, 4 FHV, 2 BHV, 3 overheads.

Connors made 12 winners apart from service: 2 FH, 6 BH, 3 FHV, 1 BHV, 0 overheads.

(Near the end of the match, NBC gave McEnroe 33 total winners, or 22 if you subtract the aces they gave him. I had him already at 23. The same with Connors: they had given him 11 winners with no aces, while I had him already at 12).


McEnroe's winners by set: 6, 9, 10
Connors' winners by set: 4, 6, 2


Strangely, both men had about twice as many winners from ground strokes than from volleys/overheads. McEnroe would have had more volley winners if Connors had returned more serves and approaches.

I did not mark down any of McEnroe's winners as drop volleys; he won the match essentially with power.


McEnroe made 7 service return winners (six off second serves), four of them passes. He made 5 other passes (4 BH), plus 2 lobs (1 BH).

Connors made 2 service return winners, one from each wing, both off McEnroe’s first serve, both passes. He made 5 other passes (4 BH) and no lobs.


Before the final game, NBC put McEnroe at 2 unforced errors, Connors at 14.


McEnroe held in all 11 of his service games and never faced a break point, or even deuce. He broke Connors 7 out of 11 possible times.


McEnroe gave up 11 points on serve and won 83 out of 125 points overall (or 66%).


At 1-5 in the second set, McEnroe had won 80% of his first-serve points, Connors just 51% (per NBC).


At love-2 in the second, McEnroe had won 16 of 27 approaches, Connors 4 of 10 (per NBC).

krosero 12-04-2008 08:55 AM

New stats
 
McEnroe won 83 points overall, Connors 42.


SERVICE

McEnroe won 44 of 55 points on serve (or 80%). He won 34 of 40 on first serve (85%) and 10 of 15 on second (67%). He won 10 of 10 points on first serve in the third set.

Connors won 31 of 70 points on serve (44%). He won 24 of 47 on first serve (51%) and 7 of 23 on second (30%).


McEnroe served at 72.7%, making 40 of 55 first serves.
Connors served at 67.1%, making 47 of 70 first serves.

NBC had McEnroe at 75%, which works out to 41 first serves, one more than I counted. Steve Flink writes that he made 43 out of 55 first serves (78%), in The Greatest Tennis Matches of the Twentieth Century.

I proofed all 15 second serves I have for McEnroe; they’re confirmed.

Other than these discrepancies, however -- and my ace count coming in lower than NBC's because I counted only clean aces -- my stats agree with all of NBC's midmatch stats and Flink's other stats, including McEnroe's points lost on serve.

(I've edited the original post to reflect only the clean aces; in this match and a few others I had counted some serves barely grazed by the receiver's racquet).


McEnroe's service % by set:
16/21 - 76%
14/16 - 88%
10/18 - 56%

Connors' service % by set:
15/18 - 83%
15/26 - 58%
17/26 - 65%


McEnroe converted 7 of 12 of break points and did not face a break point himself. Of those 12 break points, Connors made his first serve on 9; he was broken five times on first serve and twice on second.


Each man drew 17 return errors. McEnroe drew 2 with second serves, Connors 4.


Errors (forced and unforced)

Subtracting the winners and aces from the total points won:

McEnroe made 30 total errors. Of those I counted 17 return errors and no double-faults, so that leaves him making 13 errors in points that had at least a successful return, that is, in rallies.

Connors made 49 total errors. Of those I counted 17 return errors and 5 double-faults, so that leaves him making 27 errors in rallies.

krosero 12-04-2008 08:56 AM

Maskell, Barrett and Bud Collins all commented on how extraordinarily fast the court was playing because it had been baked hard in the heat. Flink writes in his book that the temperature for the final was 102 F.

McEnroe won with straightforward power. With the court playing so fast, and Connors not coming close to challenging him, there was no danger in driving the ball hard and into the corners on all strokes including volleys; no need for drop shots here, or for throwing junk at Connors’ forehand. Since Jimmy likes pace, it made the result all the more impressive.

Maskell said it was the greatest display of tennis on this court that he’d ever seen. It confirmed, he said, what he’d been saying about McEnroe being the best world #1 he’d ever seen in all his years watching tennis.

“I don’t think Rod Laver was ever more devastating against bad length second services than McEnroe is today”, he remarked at one point.

Connors got 4 games, so a comparison could be made with his two losses to Borg here in ’78 and ’79, in each of which he got 7 games. I had been interested to see if McEnroe could match Borg’s 89% success on first serve in the ’79 semifinal. Since McEnroe had the larger margin of victory it would be no surprise if he had higher success than Borg on both first and second serves, and he does on second. His 85% success on first serve is essentially up there with Borg’s. The difference is not large and it’s rare, in any case, to see anyone top 90%. In itself, Borg’s 89% remains surprising given that he did it with a wood racquet (and when the conditions were not as fast).

At some point I’d like to post about McEnroe’s Aggressive Margin, because of all his stats, his total of 2 unforced errors for the whole match might be the most impressive (and it’s the one that I always hear people highlighting in articles or in conversation about this match).

Moose Malloy 12-04-2008 09:29 AM

Quote:

Each man drew 17 return errors. McEnroe drew 2 with second serves, Connors 4.
None you considered service winners?

Quote:

Maskell said it was the greatest display of tennis on this court that he’d ever seen.
Where can I get a BBC version of this match? I only have the NBC version & its hard to see the ball.

Quote:

The difference is not large and it’s rare, in any case, to see anyone top 90%.
do you think any women have done this in major finals(maybe Graf vs Martina at W)? Sorry I don't provide 'pts won on serve' in any of my stats, I don't see how I'd be able to do that, plus winners, serve %, all from just one viewing.

Kingv 12-04-2008 09:48 AM

Wow thanks krosero :) i like this trheads

krosero 12-04-2008 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 2910355)
None you considered service winners?

Actually yes, I gave McEnroe 5, Connors 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 2910355)
Where can I get a BBC version of this match? I only have the NBC version & its hard to see the ball.

Adrian has it and the visual quality is much better. The sound is not as good (though maybe better than BBC matches from the 70s), and more and more I see how much sound makes a difference in your impression of how much power was used. I was watching the BBC version and then I put in NBC's and suddenly McEnroe seemed that much deadlier, and the whole match seemed more of an execution. I'm starting to think there are issues here when comparing matches acoss eras, like comparing to Borg's finals (except '78, because the NBC version is available).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 2910355)
do you think any women have done this in major finals(maybe Graf vs Martina at W)?

Maybe, but I would have thought that men, having bigger serves and seeing fewer breaks, would have a better chance.

Anything is possible in a big blowout, though.

Offhand in our matches I know Sampras had 91% against Agassi at the '90 USO (the only time he broke 90% meeting Andre in a Slam).

Moose Malloy 12-04-2008 12:54 PM

Quote:

Adrian has it and the visual quality is much better
but his site says its in PAL??
It also says PAL on a few other matches I wanted to get(Edberg-Stich '91 W, Becker-Edberg '89 FO)

andreh 12-04-2008 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 2910734)
but his site says its in PAL??
It also says PAL on a few other matches I wanted to get(Edberg-Stich '91 W, Becker-Edberg '89 FO)

Are you wondering what PAL is? If you do, it's the european TV-standard as opposed to NTSC in the US. It might not look very good on US equipment. But I am quite sure you can rip the DVD and convert it with some software that can be found on the web and then it will be ok.

BTW, the FO 89 match is a fun match.

Moose Malloy 12-14-2008 07:11 PM

Here are my stats for the 1982 W Final

Connors d McEnroe 3-6 6-3 6-7(2) 7-6(5) 6-4

Connors had 56 non servive winners: 14 fh, 13 bh, 14 fhv, 13 bhv, 2 ov
Mac had 48: 7 fh, 7 bh, 14 fhv, 11 bhv, 9 ov

winners by set
Connors - 7, 10, 8, 21, 10
Mac - 6, 7, 14, 14, 7

Connors was 5 of 14 on break points
Mac was 4 of 12

Connors had no aces, 13 doubles(8 in the 3rd set)
Mac had 20 aces(3 on 2nd serve), 10 doubles

serve stats by set:

Connors
19 of 27 (70%)
21 of 30 (70%)
27 of 48 (56%)
32 of 50 (64%)
18 of 27 (67%)

117 of 182 (64%) for the match

Mac
16 of 33 (48%)
15 of 21 (71%)
17 of 33 (51%)
25 of 42 (60%)
13 of 29 (45%)

86 of 158 (54%) for the match

Mac had 35 unreturned serves, 9 I judged service winners
Connors had 33, 6 I judged service winners

Connors had 20 passing shot winners (10 fh, 10 bh)
Mac had 9 (4 fh, 5 bh)

Connors was up 3-1 in the 1st set & 5-3 in the 3rd(lost both sets)
He served 2 straight doubles at 30-30, 5-4 in the 3rd

Stats from NBC:

% of points won on 1st serve

1st set - Mac 80%, Connors 58%
2nd set - Mac 57%, Connors 68%
3rd set - Mac 86%, Connors 82%

at 3-2 in the 3rd, they had Connors with 15 unforced errors, Mac with 13

they had Connors as 27/40 at net as of 2-0 in the 3rd set tiebreak

Dick Enberg said Bjorn Borg picked Connors to win the event before it started.

Bud Collins said this was the first Sunday final in Wimbledon history.

krosero 12-14-2008 10:02 PM

Per SI, each man won 173 points, with McEnroe serving 19 aces and 10 doubles, Connors no aces and 13 doubles.

“Thirteen of McEnroe's 20 service points in the [first] set came on aces, service winners or return errors” (NY Times).

And at 4 hours 14 minutes it was the longest-ever Wimbledon final, until this year.

But the 1980 final, which had clocked in at 3 hours 53 minutes, actually had more points: 376 by my count (and the NY Times), compared to the 340 you have in this final (346 per SI).

Nadal and Federer did play more points, though (413).

(Maybe some finals before the Open Era, when play was continuous, had more points than 1980 or 1982).

krosero 12-14-2008 10:16 PM

1954 final - 58 games (Drobny d. Rosewall)
1980 final - 55 games (including one that had 34 points)
1982 final - 54 games
2008 final - 62 games

abmk 10-24-2009 10:34 AM

Just saw this match again. mac's brilliance doesn't cease to amaze. He played flawless tennis.

As well as mac was playing , does anyone think :

a) a better server than connors would've had a chance to get mac's level down ( winning a tie-break ? ) ?

b) connors should've stayed back more on his serve as mac was returning well and connors was getting burnt SnVing with that serve of his ?

both a and b considering mac couldn't possibly continue serving at such a high percentage for 4 sets , in fact his serve % dropped to 56 in the 3rd ...

jimbo333 10-24-2009 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 2931430)
Here are my stats for the 1982 W Final

Connors d McEnroe 3-6 6-3 6-7(2) 7-6(5) 6-4

Connors had 56 non servive winners: 14 fh, 13 bh, 14 fhv, 13 bhv, 2 ov
Mac had 48: 7 fh, 7 bh, 14 fhv, 11 bhv, 9 ov

winners by set
Connors - 7, 10, 8, 21, 10
Mac - 6, 7, 14, 14, 7

Connors was 5 of 14 on break points
Mac was 4 of 12

Connors had no aces, 13 doubles(8 in the 3rd set)
Mac had 20 aces(3 on 2nd serve), 10 doubles

serve stats by set:

Connors
19 of 27 (70%)
21 of 30 (70%)
27 of 48 (56%)
32 of 50 (64%)
18 of 27 (67%)

117 of 182 (64%) for the match

Mac
16 of 33 (48%)
15 of 21 (71%)
17 of 33 (51%)
25 of 42 (60%)
13 of 29 (45%)

86 of 158 (54%) for the match

Mac had 35 unreturned serves, 9 I judged service winners
Connors had 33, 6 I judged service winners

Connors had 20 passing shot winners (10 fh, 10 bh)
Mac had 9 (4 fh, 5 bh)

Connors was up 3-1 in the 1st set & 5-3 in the 3rd(lost both sets)
He served 2 straight doubles at 30-30, 5-4 in the 3rd

Stats from NBC:

% of points won on 1st serve

1st set - Mac 80%, Connors 58%
2nd set - Mac 57%, Connors 68%
3rd set - Mac 86%, Connors 82%

at 3-2 in the 3rd, they had Connors with 15 unforced errors, Mac with 13

they had Connors as 27/40 at net as of 2-0 in the 3rd set tiebreak

Dick Enberg said Bjorn Borg picked Connors to win the event before it started.

Bud Collins said this was the first Sunday final in Wimbledon history.

Great stuff:)

Would you know if the BBC version of this is available on DVD at all? Or anywhere else?

As I'd really like to see it again!

jrepac 10-24-2009 06:22 PM

Mac
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk (Post 4052152)
Just saw this match again. mac's brilliance doesn't cease to amaze. He played flawless tennis.

As well as mac was playing , does anyone think :

a) a better server than connors would've had a chance to get mac's level down ( winning a tie-break ? ) ?

b) connors should've stayed back more on his serve as mac was returning well and connors was getting burnt SnVing with that serve of his ?

both a and b considering mac couldn't possibly continue serving at such a high percentage for 4 sets , in fact his serve % dropped to 56 in the 3rd ...

I always felt this was the best match I saw Mac play, ever. And, never saw Connors so stymied...maybe when Lendl beat him 0, 0 on clay perhaps. But even then, he seemed more in the match.

But, I remember watching that match in 84, screaming at the TV for Connors to "stay back, stay back"....Mac was just scorching on the returns...

But, I don't think anyone could've touched Mac on that day. So hard to imagine Mac winning so handily after the mega-struggle between them in '82 (which in honesty, Connors should've won more easily)

abmk 10-24-2009 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrepac (Post 4052942)
But, I remember watching that match in 84, screaming at the TV for Connors to "stay back, stay back"....Mac was just scorching on the returns...

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrepac (Post 4052942)
But, I don't think anyone could've touched Mac on that day.

touching mac in that form was very tough I'd agree, but still I'd like to see more responses to a)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrepac (Post 4052942)
So hard to imagine Mac winning so handily after the mega-struggle between them in '82 (which in honesty, Connors should've won more easily)

am yet to watch this, haven't got it

jimbo333 10-25-2009 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk (Post 4053056)

am yet to watch this, haven't got it

I watched the 82 when it was originally on TV at the time, but would really like to see it again!

It seems it isn't available anywhere though:(

abmk 10-25-2009 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo333 (Post 4053559)
I watched the 82 when it was originally on TV at the time, but would really like to see it again!

It seems it isn't available anywhere though:(

Here you go:

http://www.elrincondeltenis.com/?p=3234

Spanish commentary though

hoodjem 10-25-2009 07:14 AM

Mac won 18 games; Connors won 4.

Or Mac won 82% of the games in the match

jrepac 10-25-2009 07:17 AM

82 final
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo333 (Post 4053559)
I watched the 82 when it was originally on TV at the time, but would really like to see it again!

It seems it isn't available anywhere though:(

I had it on videotape...2 cassettes w/the British commentary....I think you can order it on DVD now...

Bhagi Katbamna 10-25-2009 09:16 AM

I remember thinking at that time that McEnroe was doing to Connors what Connors did to Rosewall ten years ago.


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