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-   -   Caribbean NTRP Flight Domination (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=172049)

Backboard 12-22-2007 09:31 AM

Caribbean NTRP Flight Domination
 
Here is how the Caribbean Men's 3.0 team has done at USTA League Nationals over the past 7 years:

2001 WON Mens 3.0 Nationals

2002 WON Mens 3.0 Nationals

2003 WON Mens 3.0 Nationals

2004 Lost Mens 3.0 in SEMI-FINALS

2005 SECOND PLACE, lost very close 2 - 3 finals against PNW

2006 SECOND PLACE, lost very close 2 - 3 finals against M-i-d-W*e*s*t. In the finals, all three of the lines won by MW were won a a 3rd set tiebreak.

2007 SECOND PLACE, lost very close 2 - 3 finals against Texas, with the deciding match won in third set tiebreak.

So in the past seven years, the Caribeean 3.0 men have won THREE National Championships and with a little better luck it could easily have been FOUR or FIVE championships.

For seven years in a row (I do not know what happened prior to 2001) they have finished in the top four every year and have made the finals 6 of the last 7 years.

Does anyone know of ANY other Section which has dominated ANY NTRP level the way the Caribbean has owned Mens 3.0???

Congratulations to the Caribbean!

Applesauceman 01-31-2008 08:31 PM

Probably by sandbagging...

Least I forget, congratulations to Texas, and congratulations to the Caribbean!

lostinamerica 02-01-2008 09:10 AM

It does appear the Caribbean has something figured out in 3.0.

cknobman 02-01-2008 10:02 AM

sandbaggers!

goober 02-01-2008 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostinamerica (Post 2061390)
It does appear the Caribbean has something figured out in 3.0.

They figured out it is a lot easier to dominate at 3.0 than at 4.5,4.0 and 3.5?:)

lostinamerica 02-01-2008 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 2061523)
They figured out it is a lot easier to dominate at 3.0 than at 4.5,4.0 and 3.5?:)

I am not from Puerto Rico but I would guess that I could do some damage at 3.0. Maybe I could re-rate down a few levels.

I know some people who have played agains the Caribbean at Nationals in one year or the next and they all have said that the line calls are blatantly bad. They also say the fans are really loud and obnoxious. This has been pretty universal in my non-empirical discussions with those who have played them. From what little I have read on these boards, the same thing is said.

AndrewD 02-02-2008 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cknobman (Post 2061502)
sandbaggers!

In numerous threads on this board I have seen people state that the NTRP level, while it is supposed to be the same everywhere, is not the same for each region as some areas, due to more competitors and, subsequently, greater competition, rate much more severely. As a result, a 4.5 in New England (for example, excuse me if that isn't a region) is not a 4.5 in Florida or SoCal. In those regions the NE player would be 3.5 or 4.0 at best.

My question is, what happens when those regions play each other in NTRP competition? If there genuinely is a discrepancy in the playing standards, won't the Florida or SoCal (for example) players always be considered sandbaggers by the NE players and anyone else who rates their players?

I know you have 'benchmark' players but that seems to go against the notion of a discrepancy in standard between regions.

Applesauceman 02-02-2008 05:39 PM

We find some disparity within our own state. This occurs mostly due to what you've already mentioned...more competitors and greater competition. For example, in Northern Michigan there are approx. 3 Men's 3.0 teams, with approx. 15 players on each team, all competing for a chance to go to state. In Western Michigan there are approx. 8 Men's 3.0 teams, with approx. 15 players on each team, all competing for a chance to go to state. In Southeastern Michigan there are approx. 40 Men's 3.0 teams, with approx. 15 players on each team, all competing for a chance to go to state. So the winning team in NM is the best of 3 teams (45 players), WM is the best of 8 teams (120 players), and SEM is the best of 40 teams (600 players). This is like having Class A, B, and C schools playing each other for the state championship, which doesn't happen because Class A schools would have a larger talent pool (more students living in their district) to choose from over Class B and C schools. The same holds true for Class B schools over Class C schools. Also, if you are a 3.0 player, the USTA computer rating is only comparing you to other 3.0 players in your league, not to other 3.0 players in your state, or other 3.0 players in your section, unless you make it to the state level or beyond. This is not an excuse by any means, but simply shows how a 3.0 player in Michigan can be weaker than a 3.0 player in New York. It's not that the USTA is doing anything wrong either, it's just the disparity in players due to regions. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule, and it's not impossible for teams from smaller talent pools to defeat teams from larger talent pools. Please understand that these numbers are approx. and for reference and example only, and merely to show how there can be a disparity.

AndrewD 02-05-2008 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Applesauceman (Post 2064607)
Also, if you are a 3.0 player, the USTA computer rating is only comparing you to other 3.0 players in your league, not to other 3.0 players in your state, or other 3.0 players in your section, unless you make it to the state level or beyond.

Okay, I can see how the problems occur. If, in comparison to the rest of the country, you're a 3.5 player you could still find yourself demoted to 3.0 if you happen to play in a heavily populated league. Then, if after being demoted you manage to get through to state or national at that lower level you would be considered a sandbagger as your standard is higher than the average outside your league.

Would that be a fair summation?

fe6250 02-06-2008 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Applesauceman (Post 2064607)
Also, if you are a 3.0 player, the USTA computer rating is only comparing you to other 3.0 players in your league, not to other 3.0 players in your state, or other 3.0 players in your section, unless you make it to the state level or beyond.

This is not 100% true as I understand it and is the reason behind the whole benchmark player issue. At the end of the year, when benchmarks are assigned, your matches against those benchmarks (or even against other players who played those benchmarks) are factored into your rating.

So, in your example if you lost the local league but played your league winner - you played against a 'benchmark'. How this person did against others at districts, and in turn how they did or the people they played did at sectional and nationals all factor into the formula.

Backboard 02-07-2008 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostinamerica (Post 2061852)
I am not from Puerto Rico but I would guess that I could do some damage at 3.0. Maybe I could re-rate down a few levels.

I know some people who have played agains the Caribbean at Nationals in one year or the next and they all have said that the line calls are blatantly bad. They also say the fans are really loud and obnoxious. This has been pretty universal in my non-empirical discussions with those who have played them. From what little I have read on these boards, the same thing is said.

Lost,

I congratulate the Caribbean for consistently sending strong teams to Nationals.

However, I agree with your last comment. In 2007 both the men's 3.0 teams from New York and the team from Florida were the victims of numerous bad calls by Caribbean players. And in the semi-finals Caribbean vs Inter-Mountain some of the Caribbean calls were just horrible _ obvious bad calls at crucial times.

But their fans were the worst. On one court in the finals, they had about 20 fans yelling insults and calling our player names in Spanish. (Our player spoke Spanish & knew what they were saying.) After we won the deciding match, one of their female fans gave us the "middle finger salute". (I wish I had taken a picture of that!)

QUESTIONS:
1) THE USTA MUST SEE THIS. WHY DO THEY ALLOW IT TO GO ON EVERY YEAR?

2) The Caribbean must have some type of Sectional USTA office. They must know they are getting a bad reputation. Why doesn't their Sectional office try to do something to improve sportsmenship?


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