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-   -   Palm position in serve takeback. (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=172221)

J011yroger 12-24-2007 05:37 AM

Palm position in serve takeback.
 
Very interested in the advantages and disadvantages and results of different palm positions on service takeback.

Firstly the palm curled in as taught by our own Dave Smith/Tennismastery. And shown by Tommy Haas in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRczSAvD73E

As opposed to the palm down as taught by Rick Macci and shown by Andy Roddick in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muKDqiVer0k

Experimenting on my own I find the palm curled in best for day in day out bread and butter hard slice/hybrid serves and for nastier topspin/kickers. And the palm down best for A1 flat ball pure MPH serves.

Really hoping to hear from guys like Tennismastery and Tricky. Have not seen this discussed very much, and I think it is pretty important.

J

Kevo 12-24-2007 06:53 AM

I have tried to figure out how this would make a difference and I just can't seem to put my finger on it. I've experimented with both and things in between and it seems to me once the motion starts the wrist position on take back has no effect at all.

I've been telling some of the kids I work with to simply forget about the take back entirely and concentrate on the motion up to contact. I've said once they get the contact part down and can serve reliably they can use whatever take back they want. It just doesn't seem to matter much at all as far as I can tell.

Jolly, in the videos you've sited, it seems that both Roddick and Haas have similar contact and finishes even though they started differently. The Haas video doesn't quite show everything through the contact, but you can see how the arm and wrist turn in the follow through.

J011yroger 12-24-2007 07:17 AM

seems to me as if the palm down works better when going straight at the ball and rolled in beter when spinning it. If you watch the vids they are indeed quite different in takeback and followthrough.

J

WildVolley 12-24-2007 07:36 AM

What do you think the palm position does? I can think of two potential things.

One, it might change the motion of the swing by activating certain muscles, or two, it might cause a specific stretch-shortening cycle in some muscles which make the pronation more vigorous (as pronation with good servers seems to clearly be a reflex), or perhaps both.

Well, that certainly clarified things.:confused: I'd also be interested in hearing the responses of those more knowledgeable than I.

J011yroger 12-24-2007 07:40 AM

^^^ If I knew I wouldn't have asked :)

Hoping Yandell, JCO, and some of the other top coaches can shed some light.

J

J011yroger 12-24-2007 07:42 AM

Just thinking guys that lay down lightning bolts, seem to favor palm down, and spinners prefer the other. Which mirrors my personal observations.

J

Tennismastery 12-24-2007 07:43 AM

J011yroger,

You have made some good observations regarding the position of the palm (or, relationship of the hand to the forearm) and how subtle positions can augment or embellish service effects.

I have long stated that the majority of pros simply adjust this aspect of their hand position as opposed to making specific grip adjustments. (There are examples of both subtle grip changes as well as turning the hand in or out more.) Players should experiment with different position of the palm (curled in more for spin or turned out for flatter serves as you have correctly reported), as this is where players can discover aspects of the serve that contribute to more effective serving abilities.

Thanks for bringing this important point up. It is a good one.

P.S. With all the holidays, I've been doing the 'family things' of late. Hope to visit more often!

firefox 12-24-2007 07:52 AM

Try throwing a baseball with palm open vs. turned in. With palm open, you will get a lot more whip action from your elbow to your palm, in turn gives you more acceleration, IMHO.

Example of two types of wrist position:

Palm face down = Sampras, Becker
Palm curled in = Edberg

WildVolley 12-24-2007 07:55 AM

How would you categorize the starting hand position of someone like Goran and his closest imitator Ljubicic who have that odd starting position where the wrist seems to be more heavily in adduction (the pinky toward the outside of the forearm) at the start of the swing?

NoBadMojo 12-24-2007 10:00 AM

I dont involve my lessons with stuff like this as it is a personal preference sort of thing <unless they ask>. It often serves to unecesssarily complicate and confuse. I am concerned about what's going on when everything gets into the slot..there are multiple proper means to that end. the precursor stuff really isnt so important provided what they are doing is relaxed and rhythmic and comfortable for them.

J011yroger 12-24-2007 10:07 AM

^^^ Understood, and yes they both produce effective, yet different results. I am just looking to see what some of our more technical coaches have to say on the matter so that I can see which I prefer as my personal preferance. I really like both ways, but I know that in order to really groove my motion I am going to have to choose one or the other.

Now that my shoulder is 100%, and I have figured out how I want to play, I just need to become a machine, and I would consider it foolish on my part if I did not look into the issue before deciding.

J

NoBadMojo 12-24-2007 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J011yroger (Post 1955959)
^^^ Understood, and yes they both produce effective, yet different results. I am just looking to see what some of our more technical coaches have to say on the matter so that I can see which I prefer as my personal preferance. I really like both ways, but I know that in order to really groove my motion I am going to have to choose one or the other.

Now that my shoulder is 100%, and I have figured out how I want to play, I just need to become a machine, and I would consider it foolish on my part if I did not look into the issue before deciding.

J

you will be part of the Borg Collective. If you are changing your serve because of your shoulder, you may wish to look to the abbreviated motion. Some of the older pros are doing that and are getting lots of work on the ball that way. Dont know if they are doing it more for their back or more for their shoulder. The palm down thing might encourage that abbreviated type of motion more. I tend to think more in terms of feet and large muscle groups and only discuss things like wrists and palms when absolutely necessary
good luck with the palm thing.... i wouldnt want to change something like that...you could change it and never get it going back to as good as it was before, let alone improve

Noveson 12-24-2007 12:39 PM

I always thought this was related to the type of serve? Maybe I'm wrong here, but I've always curled my palm in for kickers/slices, while I leave it out whenever I go for a flat serve. Maybe we should find a video of both roddick/hass serves, see if their palm position changes from serve to serve?

J011yroger 12-24-2007 12:45 PM

^^^ Ya but I don't want to telegraph my intent, unless I started out the same way and rolled it in or out early in the takeback. If I started out differently it would be extremely easy to tell what was comming, and while my flat ball has enough hurt on it to be extremely effective if you know it is comming, it is about unreturnable if you don't.

J

J011yroger 12-24-2007 01:06 PM

Some more, Querrey down, Safin in.

J

boojay 12-24-2007 01:20 PM

I definitely find it easier to hit flat with palm down and hitting with spin when the palm is curled. For fear of playing against observant, higher level players who are capable of reading my serve, I've opted to stick with a curled palm and gradually find a way to hit flatter because I think it's significantly easier to make that adjustment than to keep a palm down approach and doing the opposite.

Kevo 12-24-2007 02:01 PM

I think what is causing me difficulty in understanding this wrist thing is that it seems no matter what I do at the beginning my wrist position during the upward swing is going to be totally dependent on my intended contact.

If I am hitting a slice serve my wrist must be positioned a certain way to allow the racquet face to slice the ball more toward the right hand side (for righty server) than if I am going to hit flat where the wrist is going to be in a slightly different position.

In my personal experimentation the things that have mattered are grip and swingpath. The wrist for me is pretty much along for the ride. I have gotten some nice boost from working with adding more supination before pronation, but I think that's not really related to this discussion. I'd be interested to hear others theories on how the wrist position at the start could effect the larger forces later in the swing.

tennisace432 12-24-2007 02:49 PM

deleted.................

quicken 12-24-2007 08:02 PM

Sorry but can anyone explain to me what palm up and palm curl is? Thanks in advance.

Noveson 12-24-2007 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quicken (Post 1956568)
Sorry but can anyone explain to me what palm up and palm curl is? Thanks in advance.

It's the different positions when you are taking your racquet back on the serve. Take your racquet hand and try to bring your palm to your wrist, that's the palm curl if you have your racquet. Palm up is when your hand follows the line of your arm.


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