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-   -   Advice for my serve? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=173577)

sharpy 01-03-2008 04:28 PM

Advice for my serve?
 
Hello everyone

Heres a video of my serve. Any suggestions/tips would be much appreciated.

I am looking for advice specifically relating to improving depth of racket drop. Automatic? Yes. Deep? Not even close.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nY1JCzafbUk night video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ph1fuE8K_J0&feature=user day video

SystemicAnomaly 01-03-2008 04:48 PM

When you leave the ground & land for your serve, you sometimes jump to the slightly to the side rather than straight ahead. You back leg usually kicks way off to the side rather than toward the back fence. Check out the following post for more info:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showp...0&postcount=15

sharpy 01-03-2008 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 1974875)
When you leave the ground & land for your serve, you sometimes jump to the slightly to the side rather than straight ahead. You back leg usually kicks way off to the side rather than toward the back fence. Check out the following post for more info:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showp...0&postcount=15

Very true. thank you. this happens to me when i try to hit second serves with spin rather than flat.

Nellie 01-03-2008 05:36 PM

That is actually a really nice serve tecnically. It is smooth and the timing of the racquet acceleration looks to be about right.

except - Do you ever think of tossing higher - it looks like you are rushing to catch a short toss, especially in the day video. It does not look like your are fully extending at contact.

WBF 01-03-2008 05:48 PM

sharpy, your serve looks good to me! You could certainly use a bit more muscle on it though!

I agree that you are moving a little to the side, but... This isn't necessarily bad. I am not very strong, but I get a hell of a lot of power on my serve with a similar sideways step (mine is a bit more pronounced actually), so I don't think it would hold you back from getting more power...

quicken 01-03-2008 06:28 PM

You seem to bring down left arm a little too early and you also want to tuck that arm in a little. But then I guess you werent serving at like mach 3 heh.
And as you were doing the trophy position, you might want to pull that racquet shoudler a little more down to get more speed.

sharpy 01-03-2008 06:35 PM

Come on, were's our resident pro tricky??

Help me unlock that phenomenal shoulder flexibility!

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/rckt.jpg

tricky 01-03-2008 06:58 PM

Yes yes I have a lot to say, but I'm watching V-tech right now. :D

Solat 01-03-2008 07:25 PM

you don't drop your racquet enough, your wrist lays back and therefore your racquet appears to drop via wrist rather then via body drive upwards. This will mean you will lack external rotation of the shoulder in the loading of the racquet drive and your serve will lack head speed and no doubt reduced ability to pronate effectively

BeHappy 01-03-2008 07:43 PM

solat is the best poster in this section.

And he's right sharpy

BeHappy 01-03-2008 07:48 PM

sharpy, you presently do this

you point your racquet to the ground and leave your hand at head height

you need to:

put your hand behind your shoulder, at shoulder height, right behind your shoulder, not your neck.

Not so much a back scratch as a shoulder scratch.

Do what I tell you to do and your serve will instantly transform, it will feel almost miraculous.

tricky 01-03-2008 08:43 PM

Going along with what BeHappy is saying, you know your trophy position is right if the hand is about shoulder level rather than at head level. This isn't something you consciously force; it is a reflection that you pivoted correctly.

As Solat is saying, the pivot motion is off. As he point out, it looks as if you use your wrist to finish raising the racquet into the trophy, laying the wrist back. This takes away the loading of the shoulder prior in your takeback.

I think the source of the problem is that, in the beginning of your windup, your back shoulder isn't above your front. Before you begin the windup, you want to make sure you're leaning forward, so that the left side of your body is slightly bent whereas the right side is straight. As you take the racquet back, you want to mantain this slightly crooked position (so left shoulder is under right) until you start raising the toss arm and aiming for the sky.

During your takeback, you really want to just concentrate on moving your back shoulder away from and behind the front. Even when you're raising the tossing arm and looking upwards, you want to keep doing this. This will help influence how much racquet drop you get. Also, in your takeback, you *probably* want the racquet face to open a little toward the net. This puts your shoulder in a more favorable position, so that you can the shoulder farther back.

If you do this correctly, the combination of back shoulder away from front and of aiming upwards, should automatically pivot the trophy position. And, again, you know if the trophy position is good, if the hand is about shoulder height and behind the right shoulder.

So, to reiterate . . .

1) At beginning of windup, are you leaning slightly forward? Is your right side relatively straight and your left side slightly bent? Is your front shoulder below your back shoulder?

2) During takeback, are you consciously taking your back shoulder away from and behind the front shoulder?

3) During first half of takeback, is your front shoulder still under your back shoulder? Is the racquet face partially open toward net?

4) When you initiate the ball toss and look up, are you still taking your back shoulder away from and behind the front shoulder?

5) To raise the racquet, are you pivoting around your elbow or shoulder, instead of the wrist/hand?

6) When you set up the trophy, is your hand at shoulder height and behind the right shoulder?

7) When you initiate the upward swing, are you bringing your back shoulder over and on top of your front shoulder?

8) Does your body move forward into court rather than sideways? This is usually a sign that your external rotation is correct.

sharpy 01-03-2008 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tricky (Post 1975416)
Going along with what BeHappy is saying, you know your trophy position is right if the hand is about shoulder level rather than at head level. This isn't something you consciously force; it is a reflection that you pivoted correctly.

As Solat is saying, the pivot motion is off. As he point out, it looks as if you use your wrist to finish raising the racquet into the trophy, laying the wrist back. This takes away the loading of the shoulder prior in your takeback.

I think the source of the problem is that, in the beginning of your windup, your back shoulder isn't above your front. Before you begin the windup, you want to make sure you're leaning forward, so that the left side of your body is slightly bent whereas the right side is straight. As you take the racquet back, you want to mantain this slightly crooked position (so left shoulder is under right) until you start raising the toss arm and aiming for the sky.

During your takeback, you really want to just concentrate on moving your back shoulder away from and behind the front. Even when you're raising the tossing arm and looking upwards, you want to keep doing this. This will help influence how much racquet drop you get. Also, in your takeback, you *probably* want the racquet face to open a little toward the net. This puts your shoulder in a more favorable position, so that you can the shoulder farther back.

If you do this correctly, the combination of back shoulder away from front and of aiming upwards, should automatically pivot the trophy position. And, again, you know if the trophy position is good, if the hand is about shoulder height and behind the right shoulder.

So, to reiterate . . .

1) At beginning of windup, are you leaning slightly forward? Is your right side relatively straight and your left side slightly bent? Is your front shoulder below your back shoulder?

2) During takeback, are you consciously taking your back shoulder away from and behind the front shoulder?

3) During first half of takeback, is your front shoulder still under your back shoulder? Is the racquet face partially open toward net?

4) When you initiate the ball toss and look up, are you still taking your back shoulder away from and behind the front shoulder?

5) To raise the racquet, are you pivoting around your elbow or shoulder, instead of the wrist/hand?

6) When you set up the trophy, is your hand at shoulder height and behind the right shoulder?

7) When you initiate the upward swing, are you bringing your back shoulder over and on top of your front shoulder?

8) Does your body move forward into court rather than sideways? This is usually a sign that your external rotation is correct.

Yes, I feel if I don't use some wrist to 'finish' into the trophy position, the racket wouldnt be pointed straight up. Instead it would be tilted down to the right if I only relied on an elbow pivot and kept a totally relaxed wrist. (since this happens if you lead w/ elbow using a somewhat abbreviated motion)


What exactly do you mean take your back shoulder away and further to the right than your left shoulder? Can you still do a elbow pivot if you conciously bring the shoulder muscle back and to the right? When exactly is a good time to start bringing the back shoulder further back? Explain more.

tricky 01-03-2008 10:26 PM

Quote:

nstead it would be tilted down to the right if I only relied on an elbow pivot and kept a totally relaxed wrist. (since this happens if you lead w/ elbow using a somewhat abbreviated motion)
Yeah, it's due to a combination of things that you're doing in the beginning. But the main thing is the relative starting height of back shoulder. During your takeback, your back shoulder is below your front shoulder. And so when you aim your sight upwards and set up the trophy, you have to raise or "swing" the elbow upwards (radial deviation.) This leads to the wrist that you're using.

However, if in your takeback your back shoulder is above your front shoulder, then as you aim your sight upwards, you'll pivot correctly without needing wrist. In fact, it'll be automatic provided that you aim your line of sight upwards.

Quote:

What exactly do you mean take your back shoulder away and further to the right than your left shoulder? Can you still do a elbow pivot if you conciously bring the shoulder muscle back and to the right? When exactly is a good time to start bringing the back shoulder further back? Explain more.
Actually it's to the back and to the left. That's how I prefer to look at it -- the takeback is back shoulder stretching away from the front; the upward swing is back shoulder snapping back toward the front. It's easier for me to look at this way, because the actual rotation of a serve is moving in all three planes is actually complex if you try to think it through.

Another way to look it is you want to apply as much stretch (passively, through the body itself) to your right pec in your takeback. The stretch on the right pec helps to indicate how much load you're applying to the shoulder, and it helps to influence how much racquet drop you'll get. Now, the key thing here is even when you're applying the trophy position, the pec is still being stretched passively. This means that the shoulder is still being loaded, and in turn this also aids in the setting up of the trophy position.

Solat 01-03-2008 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeHappy (Post 1975330)
solat is the best poster in this section.

And he's right sharpy

that is the best thing anyone has ever said about me!

completely misguided but thanks anyway :P

sharpy 01-04-2008 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tricky (Post 1975555)
Yeah, it's due to a combination of things that you're doing in the beginning. But the main thing is the relative starting height of back shoulder. During your takeback, your back shoulder is below your front shoulder. And so when you aim your sight upwards and set up the trophy, you have to raise or "swing" the elbow upwards (radial deviation.) This leads to the wrist that you're using.

However, if in your takeback your back shoulder is above your front shoulder, then as you aim your sight upwards, you'll pivot correctly without needing wrist. In fact, it'll be automatic provided that you aim your line of sight upwards.



Actually it's to the back and to the left. That's how I prefer to look at it -- the takeback is back shoulder stretching away from the front; the upward swing is back shoulder snapping back toward the front. It's easier for me to look at this way, because the actual rotation of a serve is moving in all three planes is actually complex if you try to think it through.

Another way to look it is you want to apply as much stretch (passively, through the body itself) to your right pec in your takeback. The stretch on the right pec helps to indicate how much load you're applying to the shoulder, and it helps to influence how much racquet drop you'll get. Now, the key thing here is even when you're applying the trophy position, the pec is still being stretched passively. This means that the shoulder is still being loaded, and in turn this also aids in the setting up of the trophy position.


When you say back shoulder higher than front do you mean your supposed to purposely lift the right trap muscles a bit, or is it leaning foward a bit with your upper body?

Wouldnt the shoulder automatically go back and to the left if you did an elbow pivot? Or do you have to do this on purpose?

I never knew the orientation of back shoulder over front controls the wrist position too....

By the way thanks so much for your help

stav_babolat 01-04-2008 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 1974875)
When you leave the ground & land for your serve, you sometimes jump to the slightly to the side rather than straight ahead. You back leg usually kicks way off to the side rather than toward the back fence. Check out the following post for more info:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showp...0&postcount=15

wouldt a better toss help solve that problem as if he tosses the ball straight , hell naturally move sideways to hit it. I do that alot aswell.

tricky 01-04-2008 10:09 AM

Quote:

When you say back shoulder higher than front do you mean your supposed to purposely lift the right trap muscles a bit, or is it leaning foward a bit with your upper body?
Just lean forward a little. As you initiate the windup, you are still leaning a bit so that the front shoulder is a little under. Then you do the rest of the windup as normal. As long as you concentrate on stretching out the right pec, or moving the back shoulder farther away from the front shoulder, then everything else takes care of itself.

When you initiate the forward swing, it feels a little like you're dunking on the ball. That's a sign that you're experiencing correct rotation.

Quote:

Wouldnt the shoulder automatically go back and to the left if you did an elbow pivot? Or do you have to do this on purpose?
Yes, but *also* in your takeback, you should also try to take the shoulder to the left while you take it back. That better tracks the natural motion of the shoulder. Right now, you're taking back in a kind of vertical slot, which limits the takeback and thus the racquet drop.

Quote:

I never knew the orientation of back shoulder over front controls the wrist position too....
It's not a direct cause-effect, but when it's set up as you have it, it leads to incorrect deviation of the arm. This also influences groundstrokes, though in each case differently (i.e. push-pull.)

onehandbh 01-04-2008 10:39 AM

^^^
tricky, do you have any videos of yourself serving or playing you
can post?

sharpy 01-04-2008 12:27 PM

[quote=tricky;1976414]Just lean forward a little. As you initiate the windup, you are still leaning a bit so that the front shoulder is a little under. Then you do the rest of the windup as normal. As long as you concentrate on stretching out the right pec, or moving the back shoulder farther away from the front shoulder, then everything else takes care of itself.

When you initiate the forward swing, it feels a little like you're dunking on the ball. That's a sign that you're experiencing correct rotation.

Quote:

Wouldnt the shoulder automatically go back and to the left if you did an elbow pivot? Or do you have to do this on purpose?
Quote:

Yes, but *also* in your takeback, you should also try to take the shoulder to the left while you take it back. That better tracks the natural motion of the shoulder. Right now, you're taking back in a kind of vertical slot, which limits the takeback and thus the racquet drop.



It's not a direct cause-effect, but when it's set up as you have it, it leads to incorrect deviation of the arm. This also influences groundstrokes, though in each case differently (i.e. push-pull.)
So, you want to pull the shoulder back and to the left before you start raising your hitting arm up?

Would you also like to make any comments on the tossing arm action? It doesnt feel that natural when i try to get full extention and its quite erratic.


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