Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Tennis Tips/Instruction (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   Slice serve for a 2nd serve (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=191209)

Rickson 04-10-2008 08:39 AM

Slice serve for a 2nd serve
 
I see that Rafa does this a lot, but I'm wondering how safe a serve this is compared to a kick serve. Is the slice serve indeed safer than a flat serve and nearly as safe if not as safe as a kick serve?

Nellie 04-10-2008 09:02 AM

Almost every player I know hits some type of slice second serve at least sometimes. I notice that the old school players often hit a flatter slice with mostly side spin (toss about 2 feet forward and slightly to the right side (for a righty)) This ball seems to dip mostly due to gravity on the slower, fastly spinning ball.

The young players seem to hit more topspin slice, which comes from the slice serve tossed closer to the body to produce a more 5 to 10 o'clock spin the causes the ball to dip into the court. This is a very safe serve because it is dipping agressively into the court.

I think that lefties, like Nadal and McEnroe, use the slice more because it is harder to track that slower, bending serve to the left, whereas a slice to the right often puts it right into most righty's wheelhouse for return.

Rickson 04-10-2008 09:12 AM

5 to 10? Are you a lefty?

Andres 04-10-2008 09:16 AM

Nope, topspin-slice, from 5 to 10. Sounds correct. I'd say more like 4 to 10 or 4:30 to 10:30, but yeah.

Pure topspin from 6 to 12. Pure slice from 3 to 9. Topspin-slice (Goran Ivanisevic's main serve) from 4,5 to 10,5 ;)

montx 04-10-2008 09:32 AM

Topspin slice is a hybrid between pure topsin 6 to 12 and pure slice 3-9, so topsin slice IS NOT 5 to 10, its 7:30 to 1:30 in its purest sense. Twist is 9 to 3 in its purest sense.

But above all things is finding a consistent serve, my flat is sometimes more reliable than my kick, but im at that stage trying to prove the axiom that kick is reliable.

It takes time and effort to develop consistency. It seems true about kick but I find it a little hard at this stage. Its all about doing things at an expert level, which Im not there yet.

Djokovicfan4life 04-10-2008 09:42 AM

At the moment I can only do slice second serves. I have pretty good success with it. I only double faulted once in 4 service games the last time I played. :)

dakels 04-10-2008 09:49 AM

Slice may be 9-3 strike for lefty, opposite for righty. More realistic for higher pace shots is a 8-2R/4-10L. Twist is not going to 9-3 either. More like 5-11R, 7-1L (+-30 minutes for the extremely flexible). Anything more is pretty difficult.

Topspinny serves have an easier time staying in the court due to the obvious downward force. If not done with a decent placement and kick, they can be very easy to return if they sit like ducks.

Djokovicfan4life 04-10-2008 09:54 AM

Don't really know what clocks you guys are using, but how the heck could a righty swing from 5 to 10? You'd have to serve underhanded to do that. :lol:

Rickson 04-10-2008 10:13 AM

Kick goes from 7 to 1 for a righty, not 5 to 11.

Andres 04-10-2008 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rickson (Post 2241258)
Kick goes from 7 to 1 for a righty, not 5 to 11.

A topspin slice serve is not a kickserve. It's a slice serve with extra topspin. Check Goran Ivanisevic for a visual.

nousername 04-10-2008 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montx (Post 2241135)
Topspin slice is a hybrid between pure topsin 6 to 12 and pure slice 3-9, so topsin slice IS NOT 5 to 10, its 7:30 to 1:30 in its purest sense. Twist is 9 to 3 in its purest sense.

you (and all other posters) have assumed the axis of rotation is in the plane of the baseline, which it hardly ever is. it is actually a somewhat complicated 3d situation, with a combination of the axis of rotation AND the initial trajectory direction of the ball. this is esp important for the twist serve. twist is the situation in which a serve with a fair amount of topspin has an axis of rotation out of plane with the plane of the baseline. your description of a twist is completely wrong, twist is not inverse slice spin. no lefty should ever attempt to get 9-3 spin, and no righty should attempt 3-9 spin ... unless you really want to mess up your arm.

in general:
topspin - rotation about horizontal axis
slice - rotation about vertical axis
twist - axis of rotation out of plane with baseline

fact:
nearly every serve has a component of topspin, slice, and twist. it's all a matter of degree, so in general serves are characterized by the most prominent component:

"topspin/kick serve": mostly topspin, little slice, little twist
"slice serve": mostly slice spin, little topspin, little twist
"twist serve": topspin/kick serve with a fair amount of twist (for those wondering a slice serve can have twist, but due to the near vertical axis of rotation, twist on a slice has little to no effect. twist is only meaningful on a heavily topspin serve.)
"flat serve": high velocity, but still a good amount of topspin

rule:
overhand serves *should* not ever have underspin or inverse slice.

.....

and to the OP: a slice is a good choice for a second serve ... heck sampras threw in all-out flats as 2nd sometimes.

nousername 04-10-2008 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres Guazzelli (Post 2241268)
A topspin slice serve is not a kickserve. It's a slice serve with extra topspin. Check Goran Ivanisevic for a visual.

right, but a righty serve from 7-1 is certainly mostly topspin, and definitely a kick.

Andres 04-10-2008 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nousername (Post 2241284)
right, but a righty serve from 7-1 is certainly mostly topspin, and definitely a kick.

Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Topspin-slice is hit from... around 4:30 to 10:30, while a kick is more like from 7 to 1.

nousername 04-10-2008 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres Guazzelli (Post 2241289)
Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Topspin-slice is hit from... around 4:30 to 10:30, while a kick is more like from 7 to 1.

but, a righty cannot and SHOULD NOT ever hit from 4:30 - 10:30, it's basically impossible. topspin slice for a righty is more like 7:30 - 1:30.

Andres 04-10-2008 10:31 AM

But... that makes no sense!

For a righty, if a pure topspin is from 6 to 12, and a pure slice serve is from 3 to 9, a topspin slice would be from 4,5 to 10,5.

The ball is struck in a diagonal way, from right to left, and from low to high on a topspin-slice.

Andres 04-10-2008 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nousername (Post 2241304)
but, a righty cannot and SHOULD NOT ever hit from 4:30 - 10:30, it's basically impossible. topspin slice for a righty is more like 7:30 - 1:30.

No, 7:30 to 1:30 is for a kickserve/twist. A topspin-slice is not a kickserve.

4:30 to 10:30 is actually easier than 7 to 1. It's a normal 3 to 9 slice serve, with a more pronunciated low to high swing.

Djokovicfan4life 04-10-2008 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres Guazzelli (Post 2241314)
But... that makes no sense!

For a righty, if a pure topspin is from 6 to 12, and a pure slice serve is from 3 to 9, a topspin slice would be from 4,5 to 10,5.

The ball is struck in a diagonal way, from left to right, and from low to high on a topspin-slice.

Yes, and swinging left to right diagonally would be 7:30 to 1:30. I think what confused you was the slice serve. Unless you're hitting reverse slice a slice serve should be struck from 9 to 3, not 3 to 9.

boojay 04-10-2008 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andres Guazzelli (Post 2241314)
But... that makes no sense!

For a righty, if a pure topspin is from 6 to 12, and a pure slice serve is from 3 to 9, a topspin slice would be from 4,5 to 10,5.

The ball is struck in a diagonal way, from left to right, and from low to high on a topspin-slice.

You're lookin' at the clock backwards, buddy.

Djokovicfan4life 04-10-2008 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boojay (Post 2241324)
You're lookin' at the clock backwards, buddy.

Arrgggg, Boojay, I can't stop watching your "Epic Video"!

Andres 04-10-2008 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djokovicfan4life (Post 2241323)
Yes, and swinging left to right diagonally would be 7:30 to 1:30. I think what confused you was the slice serve. Unless you're hitting reverse slice a slice serve should be struck from 9 to 3, not 3 to 9.

Sorry, I meant from right to left for a righty server.
A slice serve for a righty is hit from 3 to 9. From right to left.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:22 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse