Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Former Pro Player Talk (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Stats for Agassi-Sampras (1995 AO final) (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=206448)

krosero 06-28-2008 08:22 PM

Stats for Agassi-Sampras (1995 AO final)
 
Agassi d. Sampras 4-6, 6-1, 7-6 (6), 6-4

This was Agassi’s third Slam title, and his second straight (he'd won the U.S. Open a few months earlier). But it would be his last one for another four years.

Sampras was looking for his 6th, and was the defending champion.

Agassi had never played here before.

Agassi won the third set with a drop volley winner, and the match with an ace. He was down double set point in the tiebreak and saved the first one with a forehand return winner off Pete's first serve.


The following are my own stats.

Agassi won 135 points overall, Sampras 122.


SERVICE

Agassi’s service percentage by set:

15/25 (60%)
13/22 (59%)
33/46 (72%)
21/25 (84%)

82/118 (70% total for the match)


Sampras’ service percentage by set:

20/40 (50%)
6/22 (27%)
24/47 (51%)
21/30 (70%)

71/139 (51% total for the match)


Agassi won 80 of 118 points that he served (or 67.8%).

Sampras won 84 of 139 points that he served (or 60.4%). Since I counted 38 points lost on second serve, I could calculate that he won 54 of 71 points on first serve (or 76.1%), and 30 of 68 on second (or 44.1%).


Agassi got his first serve into play on 3 of 4 break points.

Sampras got his first serve into play on 7 of 21 break points (33%).


Agassi had 10 aces and 4 double-faults. He hit 26 other serves that Sampras did not return; I didn't judge any of them as service winners.

Sampras had 28 aces and 6 double-faults. He hit 29 other serves that Agassi did not return; I judged 5 of them as service winners.

Sampras hit 13 of his aces in the final set.


WINNERS

Agassi had 39 clean winners apart from serves: 24 FH, 11 BH, 2 FHV, 2 BHV.

Sampras had 25 clean winners apart from serves: 11 FH, 6 BH, 2 FHV, 5 BHV, and 1 overhead.

Agassi had 7 service return winners (4 BH), all passes. In addition he had 9 FH and 3 BH passes. Altogether he passed Sampras 19 times.

Sampras had 3 service return winners, but no passes, whether on returns or otherwise.


ERRORS

If I subtract the aces and winners from the total points won:

Agassi made 69 total errors (forced and unforced). Of those I counted 29 return errors and 4 double-faults. So in the exchanges consisting of at least a successful return, he made 36 errors.

Sampras made 86 total errors. Of those I counted 26 return errors and 6 double-faults. So in the exchanges consisting of at least a successful return, he made 54 errors.



Stats in the print media:

Per the Washington Post, Sampras won 44% of points on his second serve (the same as my figure). He made 50 unforced errors and 60 winners.

Per the New York Times, Agassi committed half as many mistakes as Sampras.

Per the Sydney Morning Herald, Sampras served at 51%, the same as my figure. (He’d served at 50% against Chang in the semis and converted only 5 of 15 break points).


From the Age (Melbourne), which had picked Agassi in four:

Quote:

From the first few points it was clear that Sampras, the best serve-volleyer in the business, would only occasionally be attacking at the net. He said later that this was because of the quality of Agassi's returns, "the best in the world by far". But his unwillingess to volley left him trying to out-rally Agassi playing him at his own game.

ESPN’s stats:

At 2-3 in the third, Agassi had won 10 of 12 at net, Sampras 21 of 38.

At 2-3 in the fourth, Agassi had 45 winners and 24 unforced errors. I had him at 45 clean winners/aces.

At 2-3 in the fourth, Sampras had 51 winners and 41 unforced errors. I had him at 44 clean winners/aces, plus 5 service winners.

At exactly 1-all in the third, Drysdale said that Agassi had won 63 points overall, Sampras 56. I had the same figure.

At 1-all in the third set, Agassi was serving at 58%, with 71% won on first serve and 64% on second. In the next game they displayed numbers for Sampras: he was serving at 42%, with 79% won on first serve and 45% on second. Those numbers are all similar to the numbers I have for the entire match.

A few weeks later Carillo said that Sampras had served at 51% in the AO Final (same as my figure).


Finally, the incorrect ATP boxscore:



The aces, doubles, number of service games and break points are all correct. The other figures are not even close to the figures I got through my own count and from ESPN and the print media.

As with the Agassi-Ivanisevic W final of 1992, I'm guessing that perhaps the service and return percentages and the Total Points Won belong to some other match. [Update]

Moose Malloy 06-29-2008 02:06 PM

Quote:

Sampras had 28 aces and 6 double-faults
Before the final, Gilbert said Sampras needed to serve 25 aces to win.

Moose Malloy 11-03-2008 11:02 AM

Here are my stats for the '00 AO SF:

Sampras had 38 non service winners: 11 fh, 5 bh, 11 fhv, 7 bhv, 4 ov
Agassi had 34: 19 fh, 12 bh, 3 fhv

Sampras had 37 aces & 5 doubles
Agassi had 13 & 3.

Sampras had 35 unreturned serves, of which I judged 7 to be service winners.
Agassi had 45 unreturned serves, of which I judged 2 to be service winners

krosero 11-03-2008 11:34 AM

Thanks Moose, and here is the published boxscore (I'm just moving it here from the original post). CNN.si and The Age (Melbourne) both published it, and it agrees with all the ATP stats:

Quote:

Following are key statistics from Andre Agassi's 6-4, 3-6, 6-7 (0-7), 7-6 (7-5), 6-1 semifinal win over Pete Sampras (Reuters)

Agassi Sampras
1st serve (percentage) 68 63
Aces 13 37
Double faults 3 5
Winning % 1st serve 74 81
Winning % 2nd serve 68 49
Winners 52 86
Unforced errors 19 56
Break points converted 3 of 13, 1 of 9
Net approaches won 19 of 26, 71 of 122
Total points won 155 149
Source: Reuters

krosero 11-03-2008 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 2836627)
Here are my stats for the '00 AO SF:

Sampras had 38 non service winners: 11 fh, 5 bh, 11 fhv, 7 bhv, 4 ov
Agassi had 34: 19 fh, 12 bh, 3 fhv

Sampras had 37 aces & 5 doubles
Agassi had 13 & 3.

Sampras had 35 unreturned serves, of which I judged 7 to be service winners.
Agassi had 45 unreturned serves, of which I judged 2 to be service winners

Subtracting the winners and aces from the total points won leaves Agassi making 74 total errors, Sampras 108.

Agassi’s 3 double-faults and 35 return errors leave him making 36 errors in rallies.

Sampras’ 5 double-faults and 45 return errors leave him making 59 errors in rallies.


In their 9 Slam meetings, the only other time that Agassi drew more return errors than Sampras was the ’99 W final.

krosero 11-06-2008 05:53 PM

The New York Times said that in 2000 the Rebound Ace court was playing "quicker than usual." Patrick McEnroe said that the balls were pumped with air in such a way as to make them very fast. He added that conditions were “about as similar to a grass court as you could have.”

That got me curious enough to count the average length of points in the third set, which Sampras won 7-6 (7-0). I did the same for the third set at their '99 W final (which Sampras won 7-5) and the third set of their '01 USO quarterfinal (also won by Sampras, 7-6).

1999 - average point lasted 2.85 hits
2000 - 3.12
2001 - 3.25

I counted everything in a point up through and including any error that may have ended it. Double-faults are counted as 1 hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 2836627)
Sampras had 37 aces & 5 doubles
Agassi had 13 & 3.

The Times reported that this was a career-high for Sampras and that 4 of his aces were on second serve.

Moose Malloy 11-07-2008 09:40 AM

Quote:

That got me curious enough to count the average length of points in the third set, which Sampras won 7-6 (7-0). I did the same for the third set at their '99 W final (which Sampras won 7-5) and the third set of their '01 USO quarterfinal (also won by Sampras, 7-6).

1999 - average point lasted 2.85 hits
2000 - 3.12
2001 - 3.25
Impressive work. I know I'll never get around to it, but I'm curious to see this stat on some other big matches over the years(Lendl-Wilander, Nadal-Federer, etc)

krosero 11-08-2008 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 2846953)
Impressive work. I know I'll never get around to it, but I'm curious to see this stat on some other big matches over the years(Lendl-Wilander, Nadal-Federer, etc)

One thing I think I did wrong here is counting double-faults, because the ball never goes into play. If I ever do this stat again I won't count the df's. You could have a player make a rash of them and it would make the average rally seem shorter.

Agassi and Sampras were making very few df's in these samples so no problem there.

The figure I got in the AO match might go down even further in the fourth set because Sampras started serving a tidal wave of aces. I didn't count them myself but going by ESPN's running count, it looks like he hit 18 aces in that set -- after serving 17 in the first three sets combined.

martini1 11-08-2008 09:46 PM

Who knows where I find a complete Sampras vs Agassi all time records? tks.

lovethetriangle 11-10-2008 12:45 AM

Wow I clearly remember watching this match, one of Agassi's first tournaments without the long hair. Plus the Koala bear with the trophy.

abmk 05-20-2010 08:28 AM

I rewatched this match just now and did the stats for this :

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 2470716)

Agassi won the third set with a drop volley winner, and the match with an ace. He was down double set point in the tiebreak and saved the first one with a forehand return winner off Pete's first serve.

yep, I am not sure how agassi guessed right on that serve, how he pulled it off ! he was up 3-0 in the TB before going down 3-5 though !!


Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 2470716)
Agassi won 135 points overall, Sampras 122.

I have agassi at 134 and sampras at 123

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 2470716)
Agassi got his first serve into play on 3 of 4 break points.

Sampras got his first serve into play on 7 of 21 break points (33%).

yep, the 2nd part is surprising, sampras got in a pretty low % of first serves in BPs. Still saved 16/21 of them though, some of them through his baseline prowess, but agassi committed errors on quite a few of those ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 2470716)
Agassi had 10 aces and 4 double-faults. He hit 26 other serves that Sampras did not return; I didn't judge any of them as service winners.

Sampras had 28 aces and 6 double-faults. He hit 29 other serves that Agassi did not return; I judged 5 of them as service winners.

Sampras hit 13 of his aces in the final set.

all tally perfectly, except I have sampras at 4 service winners, not 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 2470716)
WINNERS

Agassi had 40 clean winners apart from service: 24 FH, 11 BH, 2 FHV, 2 BHV, and 1 overhead.

Sampras had 25 clean winners apart from service: 11 FH, 6 BH, 2 FHV, 5 BHV, and 1 overhead.

I have agassi making 1 FHV, total 39 winners apart from service

I have sampras at 12 FH winners, 5 BH winners and 7 BHV winners ( I think one or 2 were half-volley winners at the net , did you count them as BH winners or as BHV winners ? ) ...... total of 27 winners apart from service

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 2470716)
Agassi had 7 service return winners (4 BH), all passes. In addition he had 8 FH and 4 BH passes. Altogether he passed Sampras 19 times.

Sampras had 3 service return winners, but no passes, whether on returns or otherwise.

One of the 8 FH passing shot was a lob .. all of sampras' return winners (3) were off the BH wing

I have agassi at 3 BH passes , not 4 ..other stats tally perfectly

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 2470716)
ERRORS (FORCED AND UNFORCED)

If I subtract the aces and winners from the total points won:

Agassi made 69 errors. Of those I counted 29 return errors and 4 double-faults. So in the exchanges consisting of at least a successful return, he made 36 errors.

Sampras made 85 errors. Of those I counted 26 return errors and 6 double-faults. So in the exchanges consisting of at least a successful return, he made 53 errors.

Stats in the print media:

Per the Washington Post, Sampras won 44% of points on his second serve (the same as my figure). He made 50 unforced errors and 60 winners.

I have sampras at 45 UEs ( 24 FH wing,15 BH wing, 6 DFs )
agassi at 28 UEs ( 16 FH wing,8 BH wing,4 DFs)

sampras at 40 forced errors ( 18 FH wing, 22 BH wing )
agassi at 36 forced errors ( 19 FH wing,17 wing )

These do NOT include the service winners

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 2470716)
ESPN’s stats:

At 2-3 in the third, Agassi had won 10 of 12 at net, Sampras 21 of 38.

I have sampras at 35/63 at the net and agassi at 9/15

TennisBeginner 05-20-2010 08:32 AM

Did you watch that match the other night on TV, I did too.

EDIT: Just realized how old this thread is, but its funny that I just watched this the other night on TV then I come here and see this thread

abmk 05-20-2010 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennisBeginner (Post 4670901)
Did you watch that match the other night on the big ten :D I did too.

I watched it on my comp ..

abmk 05-20-2010 08:37 AM

Stats on rallies:

baseline to baseline ( rallies of more than 4 shots ) : agassi won 34 of these, sampras won 21 of these

rallies of more than 4 shots incl net approaches : agassi won 39 of these, sampras won 27 of these.

now this is subjective, includes 3 or 4 shot rallies which I felt showcased baseline prowess :

agassi won 56 of these points, sampras won 34 of these ...

abmk 05-20-2010 09:28 AM

Agassi played very well . He returned excellently and played very well from the baseline. If he'd played better on the BP chances, he had, the scoreline would be quite a bit more lopsided !

The 2nd set though was clearly one of the finest he's played . sampras' serve % dipped by a big margin and agassi took advantage of it ruthlessly hitting some spectacular winners and forcing errors from sampras. He broke sampras thrice in that set.

sampras served well in the first set . Serve dipped hugely in the 2nd set. was ok in the 3rd and excellent in the 4th ( agassi had to return great to get the break in that set )

He played fairly decently from the baseline, making some spectacular shots, mostly FH winners. But was clearly outplayed by agassi from there ...Wasn't so sucessful at the net against a rampaging agassi , not surprising !

krosero 05-20-2010 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk (Post 4670891)
I have agassi making 1 FHV, total 39 winners apart from service

I have sampras at 12 FH winners, 5 BH winners and 7 BHV winners ( I think one or 2 were half-volley winners at the net , did you count them as BH winners or as BHV winners ? ) ...... total of 27 winners apart from service

As long as the ball takes any kind of bounce, I count it as a groundstroke. Do you know how many half-volleys you counted as volleys? I'm not sure we can compare our numbers without that.

That aside, can you take your numbers that are different from mine and break them down by set for me? That way I can save time and find where the discrepancy is.

Also, in this match or going forward, let me know how many of your winners were judgment calls (the opponent slightly tipping the ball), since I only count clean winners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk (Post 4670891)
One of the 8 FH passing shot was a lob .. all of sampras' return winners (3) were off the BH wing

I don't have anything marked down as a lob, but I wonder if judgment calls come into that too. Occasionally I've seen shots where I'm not entirely sure if they're lobs or "regular" passes.

But return winners, at least, are an objective stat: and I've got Sampras at 3 BH's too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk (Post 4670891)
I have agassi at 3 BH passes , not 4 ..other stats tally perfectly

Like we mentioned in the other thread, I've always counted passes even if they're hit from in front of the service line, though I probably will not count that way in the future. Maybe I gave Agassi an extra BH pass that way, though I don't mark down on my sheet that type of distinction.

Edit: Not sure why my post has the sign of an exclamation mark at the top, that's an accident.

abmk 05-20-2010 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 4671243)
As long as the ball takes any kind of bounce, I count it as a groundstroke. Do you know how many half-volleys you counted as volleys? I'm not sure we can compare our numbers without that.

not sure, I didn't mark them down, either one or two ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 4671243)
That aside, can you take your numbers that are different from mine and break them down by set for me? That way I can save time and find where the discrepancy is.

sampras FH winners by set: 3,5,3,1
sampras BH winners by set: 0,2,1,2
sampras BHV winners by set:2,0,4,1

I have agassi making 1 FHV in the 3rd set

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 4671243)
Also, in this match or going forward, let me know how many of your winners were judgment calls (the opponent slightly tipping the ball), since I only count clean winners.

I haven't marked those , unfortunately

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 4671243)
I don't have anything marked down as a lob, but I wonder if judgment calls come into that too. Occasionally I've seen shots where I'm not entirely sure if they're lobs or "regular" passes.

It was a lob and an excellent one at that. sampras tried his best but couldn't get his racquet on it ..

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 4671243)
Like we mentioned in the other thread, I've always counted passes even if they're hit from in front of the service line, though I probably will not count that way in the future. Maybe I gave Agassi an extra BH pass that way, though I don't mark down on my sheet that type of distinction.

probably, I do remember one point where agassi who was at the net passed sampras at the net with a BH down the line

krosero 05-20-2010 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk (Post 4671273)
I haven't marked those , unfortunately

Some time ago I started marking them down myself, not to put into my counts (those are still clean winners), but just to be aware of what the official statisticians might be counting. It's no different than counting judgment calls on serves, which we call service winners. On groundies and volleys we don't have a name for them, but official stats definitely make judgment calls on them, at least occasionally. So I started keeping track of them, simply by putting parentheses around the winner. For example, a Sampras forehand volley that Agassi clips with the edge of his racquet: (FHV).

Some people have boxes in which they put down check marks, but that's how I count winners. (My service stats are different).

Anyway what set did you have the lob?

(And if you can ever break down your stats by game -- when we have a discrepancy -- that would be even better, though not necessary).

I'll get back to you on the rest.

EKnee08 05-20-2010 11:07 AM

On a side note, isn't this the tourney where Pete learned that his coach and good friend, Gully had brain cancer and broke down crying in his match against Courier but came back and beat Courier in 5 sets. He probably didn't have much left in the tank (physically and especially emotionally) when he faced Andre.

krosero 05-20-2010 11:09 AM

Actually, ABMK, never mind about the breakdown by game ... that is just unnecessary.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:25 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse