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-   -   The concept of the windshield wiper is bogus (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=240764)

David L 01-21-2009 03:02 PM

The concept of the windshield wiper is bogus
 
I had never heard the idea of the windshield wiper forehand until I started visiting sites like this. Another notion which was new to me was the idea that a semi-western forehand was in some way modern, revolutionary or difficult to do; to me and most of the people I know who play, it has always been the norm and standard procedure. On top of this, you had people calling the semi-western grip an eastern grip, suggesting a player like Federer hits with an eastern or Agassi with some sort of mild semi-western, almost eastern grip. I think all of these ideas have created confusion and made it more difficult to learn the game properly. The sooner we get rid of the windshield wiper idea, plus the notion the semi-western grip is some sort of extreme complicated stroke, the better. It's a very easy stroke to hit and the most convenient, but consciously coming across the body, in an attempt to emulate a windshield wiper, is not the way to go about it, so here I am posting a couple of YouTube videos that I hope will help people trying to learn the game. The first is from tommyenglish1 and provides additional help, in the text to the right, how to go about executing the stroke. The second is from tennisomnia and shows another person learning the stroke and executing it pretty well. I hope people will be able to pick up a few tips from just observing these videos and reading the text in the first one.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vK2Jou...e=channel_page

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VpgFxobhilQ&NR=1

certifiedjatt 01-21-2009 03:05 PM

what you're trying to do is be reasonable, and examine old ideas under at least a more critical eye....
...this is NO place for that.

BeHappy 01-21-2009 03:22 PM

What is called an Eastern grip varies to something that is basically a semi western to a borderline continental (chopper grip), I bet this explains your confusion? The names are ****** I have to agree. The so called windshield wiper is the natural effect of the hand rotation caused by using an extreme grip, it is the unguided finish.

David L 01-21-2009 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by certifiedjatt (Post 3030229)
what you're trying to do is be reasonable, and examine old ideas under at least a more critical eye....
...this is NO place for that.

.....:lol:

David L 01-21-2009 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeHappy (Post 3030287)
What is called an Eastern grip varies to something that is basically a semi western to a borderline continental (chopper grip), I bet this explains your confusion? The names are ****** I have to agree. The so called windshield wiper is the natural effect of the hand rotation caused by using an extreme grip, it is the unguided finish.

I don't have any confusion on this subject, I've been playing the game for over 25 years. However, I think a lot of the instruction out there for new players trying to learn the game is not helpful and is just wrong.

David L 01-21-2009 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by certifiedjatt (Post 3030229)
what you're trying to do is be reasonable, and examine old ideas under at least a more critical eye....
...this is NO place for that.

Just to add, to my mind, the windshield wiper concept is a new and false idea, not an old one.:)

habib 01-21-2009 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David L (Post 3030550)
Just to add, to my mind, the windshield wiper concept is a new and false idea, not an old one.:)

Why do you call it a false one? The windshield wiper concept is only new as far as being widespread and so termed. In reality, pros have used such a follow-through for decades, just not as often as you see it nowadays (in part because it's a more natural follow-through for the 'extreme' grips - SW and W).

(And yes, I know you don't see the SW as an extreme, and you're right, but we're talking from the classical perspective here...)

ThA_Azn_DeViL 01-21-2009 04:57 PM

So what your saying is,

Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Murray, and EVERY single pro on the tour, is doing their motion wrong.

hmm, this intrigues me, i know for sure you wouldnt have a chance of hell in beating a pro.

You dont have to attack techniques that arent suited for you... Sorry if im harsh, its what my opinion is.

herosol 01-21-2009 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David L (Post 3030222)
I had never heard the idea of the windshield wiper forehand until I started visiting sites like this. Another notion which was new to me was the idea that a semi-western forehand was in some way modern, revolutionary or difficult to do; to me and most of the people I know who play, it has always been the norm and standard procedure. On top of this, you had people calling the semi-western grip an eastern grip, suggesting a player like Federer hits with an eastern or Agassi with some sort of mild semi-western, almost eastern grip. I think all of these ideas have created confusion and made it more difficult to learn the game properly. The sooner we get rid of the windshield wiper idea, plus the notion the semi-western grip is some sort of extreme complicated stroke, the better. It's a very easy stroke to hit and the most convenient, but consciously coming across the body, in an attempt to emulate a windshield wiper, is not the way to go about it, so here I am posting a couple of YouTube videos that I hope will help people trying to learn the game. The first is from tommyenglish1 and provides additional help, in the text to the right, how to go about executing the stroke. The second is from tennisomnia and shows another person learning the stroke and executing it pretty well. I hope people will be able to pick up a few tips from just observing these videos and reading the text in the first one.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vK2Jou...e=channel_page

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VpgFxobhilQ&NR=1

David L

Are you trying to imply that Federer, Nadal, Murray, Djoker, Nalbandian, Del Potro, Gasquet, Monfils, Davydenko....

That their techniques are all inferior to your own?

I feel bad for ya....almost...

jasoncho92 01-21-2009 05:55 PM

Just another old guy who thinks tennis died after the S&V died i guess.

BeHappy 01-21-2009 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habib (Post 3030563)
Why do you call it a false one? The windshield wiper concept is only new as far as being widespread and so termed. In reality, pros have used such a follow-through for decades, just not as often as you see it nowadays (in part because it's a more natural follow-through for the 'extreme' grips - SW and W).

(And yes, I know you don't see the SW as an extreme, and you're right, but we're talking from the classical perspective here...)

exactly .

certifiedjatt 01-21-2009 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David L (Post 3030550)
Just to add, to my mind, the windshield wiper concept is a new and false idea, not an old one.:)

by old, i meant ideas that are repeated w/o basis and accepted without scrutiny because "...my coach said so!" and "...because roger federer does it!"

WildVolley 01-21-2009 06:21 PM

I'm not sure who you are really complaining about in this post. If you are calling people out, have the guts to call them out.

Most of the people that post on this board, as I recall in past threads, use a semi-western grip. I believe it is usually the most promoted grip here too. So, I'm not sure why you think that this board is discouraging people from using the SW grip?

I know that there have been posts in the past by enthusiasts about subtle differences in the way different players hit. The one that sticks in my mind was the discussion of "push" versus "pull" modern forehands. I ultimately never understood it, but I like the idea that people are trying to expand their knowledge about how to best hit.

David L 01-21-2009 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habib (Post 3030563)
Why do you call it a false one? The windshield wiper concept is only new as far as being widespread and so termed. In reality, pros have used such a follow-through for decades, just not as often as you see it nowadays (in part because it's a more natural follow-through for the 'extreme' grips - SW and W).

(And yes, I know you don't see the SW as an extreme, and you're right, but we're talking from the classical perspective here...)

Look at the videos and read the description.

David L 01-21-2009 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThA_Azn_DeViL (Post 3030581)
So what your saying is,

Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, Murray, and EVERY single pro on the tour, is doing their motion wrong.

hmm, this intrigues me, i know for sure you wouldnt have a chance of hell in beating a pro.

You dont have to attack techniques that arent suited for you... Sorry if im harsh, its what my opinion is.

No, they all hit standard semi-western or western forehands. My point is their technique has nothing to do with emulating a windshield wiper.

David L 01-21-2009 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herosol (Post 3030670)
David L

Are you trying to imply that Federer, Nadal, Murray, Djoker, Nalbandian, Del Potro, Gasquet, Monfils, Davydenko....

That their techniques are all inferior to your own?

I feel bad for ya....almost...

No, their techniques are all fine and 'correct', but it has nothing to do with a windshield wiper. When you adopt a semi-western or western forehand, your follow-through occurs naturally. The physiology of my technique is just the same as theirs, but neither they or I try to come across the ball. We deal directly with it by hitting through and up the back of it, not coming across it. The racket ends up on the other side of our body after the stroke because this is the natural place for it to go. There is not a conscious effort to emulate a windshield wiper.

David L 01-21-2009 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildVolley (Post 3030930)
I'm not sure who you are really complaining about in this post. If you are calling people out, have the guts to call them out.

Most of the people that post on this board, as I recall in past threads, use a semi-western grip. I believe it is usually the most promoted grip here too. So, I'm not sure why you think that this board is discouraging people from using the SW grip?

I know that there have been posts in the past by enthusiasts about subtle differences in the way different players hit. The one that sticks in my mind was the discussion of "push" versus "pull" modern forehands. I ultimately never understood it, but I like the idea that people are trying to expand their knowledge about how to best hit.

I'm not calling anyone out in particular, just coaches in general who use the windshield wiper concept. Also, where did I say this board was discouraging anyone using the semi-western grip? Did you have a look at the video links I posted?

David L 01-21-2009 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by certifiedjatt (Post 3030875)
by old, i meant ideas that are repeated w/o basis and accepted without scrutiny because "...my coach said so!" and "...because roger federer does it!"

Yes I know, I was just being literal.:)

David L 01-21-2009 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasoncho92 (Post 3030804)
Just another old guy who thinks tennis died after the S&V died i guess.

I'm not old and I was never a huge fan of serve and volley tennis, but I don't mind it.

WildVolley 01-21-2009 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David L (Post 3031230)
I'm not calling anyone out in particular, just coaches in general who use the windshield wiper concept. Also, where did I say this board was discouraging anyone using the semi-western grip? Did you have a look at the video links I posted?

You specifically said you got the notion from this site, or similar sites, that the SW was "difficult to do." Perhaps I was reading too much into what you meant by writing that.

I don't think you are correct to disparage the term windshield wiper forehand, as it is possible to hit with a semi-western without using that technique. But I agree with you that the SW isn't hard to teach or learn.

I've taught a number of beginners how to hit the standard SW forehand and it immediately gave them more topspin and power. I actually used tips from this forum to help teach it.


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