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-   -   Head to Heads - Hoad/Laver, Newcombe/Laver, Newcombe/Emerson (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=244375)

timnz 02-08-2009 01:03 AM

Head to Heads - Hoad/Laver, Newcombe/Laver, Newcombe/Emerson
 
Hello,

I am trying to find these head to head statistics. I know that Laver lost his first 8 matches against Hoad (only 1 set actually), but would like to know the total head to head match scores.

Similarly Newcombe vs Emerson - I have heard that Newcombe didn't beat Emerson until Emerson was 33 years old. Haven't had verification of that though.

Laver vs Newcombe would be interesting too.

urban 02-08-2009 03:52 AM

I have for Laver-Newcombe something like 14-3 after 1968-1974. I read, that Newcombe beat Laver once in a minor tournament in Australia at the end of 1962. Maybe there were more amateur matches in Australia, before Laver turned pro. Laver's head to head with his idol Hoad changed after the first tour series in Australia and NZ in January 1963, when Hoad beat the new pro in connection with Rosewall. Hoad won all 8 January encounters, but Laver got a few sets more than one. He beat Hoad for the first time at LA in spring i think, and in 1963, the head to head ended like 12-5 or 6 in favor of Hoad.I must check McCauley for the precise results, but i assume, that 1963-1966 Laver had overall a slight edge, because after 1963 Laver won the majority of their matches. I found in McCauleys book, if i count it right a 7-1 and 6-1 lead for Laver for 1964 and 1965, and 8-3 for 1966 (this includes round robins and third plac playoffs). Andrew Tas added to McCauleys findings some results of a Queensland pro tour in 1964, where Laver also won the majority of their matches. I wouldn't read too much into this head-to head, because in their first encounters, Laver was a novice on the pro series format (Hoad himself was 2-14 in his first pro series in 1957), and later on, Hoad with his ailing back, wasn't that big of a factor on the pro tour anymore. In 1964 he ended at the 6th place among the pros.
Andrew Tas has in general the best results, one can anywhere find, of the Australian matches. So he will know more about the Emmo-Newk confrontations.

jeffreyneave 02-08-2009 09:03 AM

head to head
 
Laver v newcombe is about 16-5 for laver, which i think includes a couple of matches in the amateur period and their last match in detriot 1976 november which laver won in a 4 man event

Laver vs hoad (probably in complete because macauley often does not list all the matches in an event and sometimes has only has the result of the final )

1963 12-6 hoad
1964 18-2 laver (incudes 7-1 queensland tour for laver and one match in new
zealand besides macauley results)
1965 5-1 laver
1966 8-3 laver

this makes so far a score of 37-12 for laver


ask andrew tas for newcombe/emerson because he has pre 1967 results


jeffrey

urban 02-08-2009 09:53 AM

Thanks Jeffrey, that Laver-Newombe match at Detroit in 1976 is new to me.

timnz 02-08-2009 05:46 PM

Thanks!
 
THanks for the input :)

urban 02-10-2009 09:55 AM

Jeffrey, the ATP side had/has a result of a match Laver-Newcombe 6-1,6-0 from March 1971 at Wembley, second round. I have some doubts about this match, and i recall, that i read somewhere, that it was Hewitt, who lost to Laver. Maybe You know more about it. Is it a false information by the ATP?

d-quik 02-10-2009 09:58 AM

as soon as i become commisioner of the atp, we're going back to wood right away. first thing, no joke. just wait.

jeffreyneave 02-10-2009 10:34 AM

albert hall 1971
 
This atp information is false

Newcombe lost to pilic in the qf. Laver and newcombe were the top seeds and would not meet in a qf.


jeffrey

timnz 02-25-2009 12:38 AM

Newcombe/Emerson head to head?
 
Anyone got figures for a true head to head total of Newcombe vs Emerson? I have heard that Emerson dominates that total (including Amateur, Pro and Open years).

AndrewTas 02-25-2009 07:29 PM

Emerson vs. Newcombe
 
Unfortunately I dont have all the match-ups between Newc and Emmo. I believe that their head-to-head was 17-6 with Emmo leading. I did read from the 1967 review in World Tennis that Emerson defeated Newcombe in their first 13 matches and then Newc defeated Emmo in the semis of the 1966 South Australian. At the moment I am missing 4 matches between 1961 and 1966, all in Europe or America. After the 1966 South Australian they met 10 times and they split their matches.

As for Hoad vs. Laver and Newcombe/ Laver I have Laver leading Hoad 38-15 and Laver leading Newcombe 16-6. I have no evidence of the 1976 match between the two.

timnz 02-25-2009 09:12 PM

Emerson vs Newcombe 17-6 in Emerson's favour!
 
Thanks very much Andrew. Wow match up to Newcombe 17-6 in Emersons favour! (understood that you don't have all the results yet). Generally you hear people rating Newcombe higher than him because Newcombe won Majors in the Open era and Emerson didn't. However, the main reason is that Emerson was 31 or 32 at the beginning of the Open era.

If people say that Emerson won more against Newcombe because they first played when Newcombe was a teenager (Emerson is 7 1/2 years older), that can be balanced by the fact that Newcombe played Emerson at his peak 20's age range when Emerson was in his Mid-30's at the end of the rivalry. One balances off the other.

So my main point is that Emerson is largely underrated by the simplistic statement 'oh he won all his majors during the amateur era'. But we just don't know how a peak Emerson would have performed if he had been a professional or if the Open era had started say at the beginning of the 60's (which was considered, but that is another story). His record against Newcombe suggests he would have done at least as well as Newcombe if not better.

jeffreyneave 02-27-2009 04:27 AM

laver hoad
 
hello andrew ,
thanks for your newcombe emerson results which i do not have.


your research on laver hoad is better than mine. you have 38 wins for laver to my 37. could you please list all of laver's wins so i could spot the difference


jeffrey

hoodjem 03-02-2009 11:44 AM

When did Hoad retire?

jeffreyneave 03-03-2009 04:50 AM

hoad retirement
 
hoad stopped playing full-time tennis at the end of 1966; he started to run a tennis ranch in spain. he still entred tournaments after that; in '69 he played the full dewar cup circuit in britain;he was most active in 1970 playing the french, wimbledon and italian tournaments; he always entred any international class event in spain. his last important match was the doubles final in rome 1972 with mcmillan where hoad walked off the court in 5th set in protest at the gamesmanship of tiriac and nastase

jeffrey

Dan Lobb 05-20-2012 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urban (Post 3111236)
I have for Laver-Newcombe something like 14-3 after 1968-1974. I read, that Newcombe beat Laver once in a minor tournament in Australia at the end of 1962. Maybe there were more amateur matches in Australia, before Laver turned pro. Laver's head to head with his idol Hoad changed after the first tour series in Australia and NZ in January 1963, when Hoad beat the new pro in connection with Rosewall. Hoad won all 8 January encounters, but Laver got a few sets more than one. He beat Hoad for the first time at LA in spring i think, and in 1963, the head to head ended like 12-5 or 6 in favor of Hoad.I must check McCauley for the precise results, but i assume, that 1963-1966 Laver had overall a slight edge, because after 1963 Laver won the majority of their matches. I found in McCauleys book, if i count it right a 7-1 and 6-1 lead for Laver for 1964 and 1965, and 8-3 for 1966 (this includes round robins and third plac playoffs). Andrew Tas added to McCauleys findings some results of a Queensland pro tour in 1964, where Laver also won the majority of their matches. I wouldn't read too much into this head-to head, because in their first encounters, Laver was a novice on the pro series format (Hoad himself was 2-14 in his first pro series in 1957), and later on, Hoad with his ailing back, wasn't that big of a factor on the pro tour anymore. In 1964 he ended at the 6th place among the pros.
Andrew Tas has in general the best results, one can anywhere find, of the Australian matches. So he will know more about the Emmo-Newk confrontations.

According to Laver himself and Butch Bucholz, who were both present, the 1963 tour was 13 to 0 for Hoad. (I have the references, if anyone has doubts.)
In early 1964, Hoad and Laver did a hth of Laver's home state, which ended in a final score of 8 to 0 for Laver,
However, the following month, Hoad beat Laver 3 to 1 as part of a four-man tour of New Zealand.
Hoad and Laver tied for first place at 7 to 5, with Rosewall third place, Anderson fourth.
Hoad's edge over Laver gave him first place overall (according to Andrew Tas).

pc1 05-20-2012 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb (Post 6552168)
According to Laver himself and Butch Bucholz, who were both present, the 1963 tour was 13 to 0 for Hoad. (I have the references, if anyone has doubts.)
In early 1964, Hoad and Laver did a hth of Laver's home state, which ended in a final score of 8 to 0 for Laver,
However, the following month, Hoad beat Laver 3 to 1 as part of a four-man tour of New Zealand.
Hoad and Laver tied for first place at 7 to 5, with Rosewall third place, Anderson fourth.
Hoad's edge over Laver gave him first place overall (according to Andrew Tas).

Please give the references of the 13 to 0 in favor of Hoad and the scores please.

Dan Lobb 05-20-2012 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 6552569)
Please give the references of the 13 to 0 in favor of Hoad and the scores please.

The Bucholz interview was in 04/04/2007 in Bodo's Tennis World, where Bucholz describes his witnessing Hoad drink all night before his matches with Laver, and then win the matches, all 13 of them.
Bucholz rates Hoad #1 of all time, as does Laver himself, who claims he lost the first 14 of his matches against Hoad (in the DVD of the top ten all-time narrated by John Forsythe, 1997).
The Laver interview and the DVD is now available for general order.
The only scores I have seen were reported in the London Times and New York Times, and also the McCauley book, who wrongly claims that the final Hoad-Laver score was 8 to 0. This score also appears in Collins book on Laver, published 1971, perhaps the source for McCauley. Actually, 8 to 0 was the score of the Laver-Hoad tour of 1964 in Laver's home state, which was followed by a 3 to 1 edge for Hoad in the four-man tour of New Zealand. Perhaps Laver provided the faulty source of the 8 to 0 from his memory of the 1964 tour.

urban 05-21-2012 04:23 AM

The score of 8-0 for Hoad in January 1963 also appears in the 1964 Laver book Tennis- The winning way, by Jack Pollard. As Pollard was also the shadowwriter of Hoad, i assume, that this early reference is right. McCauley has the score of 7 matches in Australia/ NZ, maybe one more win for Hoad was played in the US later. If we are talking about the Australia-NZ series with the doubleheader Laver-Hoad, and Laver- Rosewall, Laver had to deal with both of them each meeting within two days, what he himself calls putting his head into a cement mixer. The score of the first Laver-Rosewall series in Australia and NZ was 2-11, 2-3 in Australia, 0-8 in NZ. Maybe that explains the false 13 matches score.

hoodjem 05-21-2012 05:19 AM

Speaking of Hoad and certain H2Hs, Hoad defeated Muscles in the finals at the Australian championship and Wimbledon in 1956, and Rosewall beat Hoad at the US championship that same year.

Why was Rosewall absent from the French championship in 1956?

urban 05-21-2012 05:25 AM

Wanted to win Wimbledon. Even on the amateur tour, the Double RG-Wim wasn't easy. Later in 1965 and 1966, Santana also skipped RG for Wimbledon.


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