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-   -   Why do so many opponents call out when the ball strikes the line? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=260378)

christo 05-10-2009 11:50 AM

Why do so many opponents call out when the ball strikes the line?
 
What is it about USTA play that makes generally honest players make out calls on balls that strike their side and baselines (especially)? Totally ruins the match as far as I'm concerned. Don't give me the crap about parallax etc. These players are making a conscious decision to NOT give the benefit of the doubt to the opponent.

rich s 05-10-2009 12:11 PM

I've been saying for a long time......the closer the match, the worse the vision.

sureshs 05-10-2009 12:28 PM

How do you know the ball was in?

Ronaldo 05-10-2009 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 3404974)
How do you know the ball was in?

If you do not see it out? It is in. Played dubs, server shanks a serve off the top of his racquet. Ball flies over the fence and into a tree. Server pretends he hit an ace and walks over to the other side to serve. I look at my partner, shrug my shoulders, and give him the point.
His partner falls out laughing. He knows what happened.

Cruzer 05-10-2009 12:59 PM

Some players just have bad eyesight, period. They don't intentionally make bad calls. They call what they see but unfortunately they don't always see where the ball really lands. I know a couple of people that usually wear glasses but don't wear them when playing tennis.

OrangePower 05-10-2009 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christo (Post 3404913)
What is it about USTA play that makes generally honest players make out calls on balls that strike their side and baselines (especially)? Totally ruins the match as far as I'm concerned. Don't give me the crap about parallax etc. These players are making a conscious decision to NOT give the benefit of the doubt to the opponent.

Sorry you had a bad experience. In my USTA experience, this is very rare. I have found 99% of players to be more than fair.

Sure there are occasional bad line calls. But I think these are overwhelmingly honest mistakes rather than attempts to cheat. After all, even professional linespeople make mistakes, and they are trained, right on the line, not sweating, and not focusing on getting into position to hit the ball.

Also, sometimes you might see it in from your side on the court when in reality it was out, especially on the opposite baseline. I mean it's pretty far away, and you dont have a good angle to see it.

JavierLW 05-10-2009 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruzer (Post 3405048)
Some players just have bad eyesight, period. They don't intentionally make bad calls. They call what they see but unfortunately they don't always see where the ball really lands. I know a couple of people that usually wear glasses but don't wear them when playing tennis.

And I know tons of people that DO wear glasses and they make horrible line calls. Glasses can distort your vision, especially if you have a astigmatism.

(at least they do that for me, that's why I wear contacts)

Otherwise I just think a lot of people just suffer from making calls in a manner that is the opposite of what you are supposed to do. They REALLY want it to be out and it's close so their reaction is to call it out.

There is a difference between a conscious act and a bad habit sometimes. Maybe it's not a good excuse but at least it's better then the occasional ****** who's clearly consciously cheating. (I had one of those, he would call it out either super early or sometimes after it had landed several feet in)

SystemicAnomaly 05-10-2009 01:27 PM

There are factors other than parallax and dishonesty that can account for bad calls. One of these is vantage point. Parallax is one aspect of this, proximity is another. Often, when a player is too close to the bounce location, their ability to make an accurate call is seriously compromised. The visual system, specifically the smooth pursuit system, cannot keep up with the flight of the ball when it is very close to us. The same thing happens when we are about to hit the ball -- the ball essentially becomes invisible to the eye/brain shortly before contact. Note, that for a baseball batter facing a 90 MPH pitch, the ball becomes "invisible" about 15 feet before it reaches the batter. The same thing happens to a tennis player hitting a ball or making a line call from a close proximity.

When a ball exceeds the ability of the smooth pursuit system to track it, the saccadic system is often employ. If the eyes jump ahead of the ball, lying in wait, the eyes/brain can catch a glimpse of the ball location (often just a blur). If the head & eyes are very still when looking at a line (on the court) or looking at a contact point, the ability to make a good contact or to make an accurate call is improved. This is why lines persons are taught to stop tracking the ball and, instead, are told to fix their gaze on the outside edge of the ball, keeping the head & eyes very quiet (very still).

For a lines person, the vantage point is usually much better than that of a player trying to make a call. The lines person is not too close the bounce location (and they are also in a position which minimizes parallax).

Our brain lies to us. Quite often, the first accurate picture that the brain sees is not what has really happened. When the ball is bouncing, opponents are often tyrning their heads or moving their eyes to catch a glimpse of the event. If the head or eyes are still moving as the bounce occurs, the opponent probably "sees" the event with the periperal vision. While peripheral vision is extremely good at detecting motion, it is very poor with other details -- such as acuity, color and precise location.

If the eyes/had of an opponent is moving at the time of an event, then the ball is probably already past the bounce location when their brain is able to process an accurate image of the ball. The image that the opponent sees in their head is that of the ball past the bounce event, not at the actual event. The brain attempts to fill in the lack of information garnered by the peripsheral system. In doing so, an inaccurate image is "seen" by the brain. The brain lies. The player honestly believes that they have witnessed the ball bouncing "out".

Since you, as a player, are further away from the bounce event, your head & eyes are probably relatively very quiet when witnessing the event. So, even tho' you are further from the bounce event, you will sometimes have a better perspective that an opponent who is moving head or eyes.
.

benasp 05-10-2009 04:15 PM

Great post on the theorical aspect of line call, this mean that if it's not very out, it's in.

IMO, this is nearly impossible to accurately judge a serve that land on the line +- about 6 inch.

Mick 05-10-2009 04:22 PM

the rule should be: if you don't see it out then it is in.

OrangePower 05-10-2009 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 3405486)
the rule should be: if you don't see it out then it is in.

That *is* the rule.

Mick 05-10-2009 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangePower (Post 3405500)
That *is* the rule.

yep but unfortunately, some of the people i play with don't play by this rule.

Swissv2 05-10-2009 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangePower (Post 3405110)
Sorry you had a bad experience. In my USTA experience, this is very rare. I have found 99% of players to be more than fair.

You are lucky. 99% of players I have watched, when in a USTA match, will call it out when the ball hits the line.

Ronaldo 05-10-2009 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swissv2 (Post 3405522)
You are lucky. 99% of players I have watched, when in a USTA match, will call it out when the ball hits the line.

Glad we play most of our matches on clay. Tough when your partner sees it out and you can see the mark and it is in.

Swissv2 05-10-2009 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronaldo (Post 3405654)
Glad we play most of our matches on clay. Tough when your partner sees it out and you can see the mark and it is in.

I live in a dry climate, so I am not too fortunate to play on clay. One of these days I want to try it out (grass too :) )

SystemicAnomaly 05-11-2009 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 3405486)
the rule should be: if you don't see it out then it is in.

Problem is: this might not be enough. In case you missed it in my long post above, opponents will often be very certain that they see an "in" ball as "out". They truly believe that they saw it "out", so they make the call that way. This has nothing to do with bad eyesight, it has to do with the way our eyes perceive motion in certain situations.

To be sure that you do not fall into this trap, you should make "out" calls only when you see the complete bounce event in your foveal (central) vision, not your peripheral vision. You should never make an "out" call if either your eyes are moving or your head is turning during the bounce event. If this should happen, ask you partner if he/she saw the bounce clearly. Otherwise, ask you opponent how they saw the ball and accept whatever they say in this situation.

Cindysphinx 05-11-2009 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 3406746)
Problem is: this might not be enough. In case you missed it in my long post above, opponents will often be very certain that they see an "in" ball as "out". They truly believe that they saw it "out", so they make the call that way. This has nothing to do with bad eyesight, it has to do with the way our eyes perceive motion in certain situations.

To be sure that you do not fall into this trap, you should make "out" calls only when you see the complete bounce event in your foveal (central) vision, not your peripheral vision. You should never make an "out" call if either your eyes are moving or your head is turning during the bounce event. If this should happen, ask you partner if he/she saw the bounce clearly. Otherwise, ask you opponent how they saw the ball and accept whatever they say in this situation.


But . . . How realistic is this really? I mean, if you are playing a match and especially if you are the player closest to the ball, you will rarely have both your eyes and your head still when a ball bounces.

I think all you can do is the best you can do. Look for the space between the line and the ball. If you don't see that, just play the ball.

I will say that people have horrible vision when looking across a line. I have partners who ask me repeatedly whether the serve was long when I'm calling the service line for them. I assume they are asking because they would have called it out and are surprised that I did not.

raiden031 05-11-2009 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swissv2 (Post 3405522)
You are lucky. 99% of players I have watched, when in a USTA match, will call it out when the ball hits the line.

In my 2 1/2 years or so of usta leagues, I've only witnessed maybe 3 definitively bad calls by opponents. I've witnessed countless times where they gave me the benefit of the doubt when I felt they probably won the point. I don't get why you perceive things differently. Maybe you want to believe you are being hooked, whereas I want to believe that the match is played in good faith.

bad_call 05-11-2009 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 3406751)
But . . . How realistic is this really? I mean, if you are playing a match and especially if you are the player closest to the ball, you will rarely have both your eyes and your head still when a ball bounces.

I think all you can do is the best you can do. Look for the space between the line and the ball. If you don't see that, just play the ball.

I will say that people have horrible vision when looking across a line. I have partners who ask me repeatedly whether the serve was long when I'm calling the service line for them. I assume they are asking because they would have called it out and are surprised that I did not.

agreed. when in doubt play it in.

beernutz 05-11-2009 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swissv2 (Post 3405522)
You are lucky. 99% of players I have watched, when in a USTA match, will call it out when the ball hits the line.

Where do you play? I've only played USTA for about 4 years but in that time I could count on one hand and have fingers to spare the guys who have hooked me on line calls.


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