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-   -   Was Courier really serving this slow??! (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=290416)

Trickster 09-27-2009 01:28 AM

Was Courier really serving this slow??!
 
Just watching a video of Courier vs Mcenroe at the US Open 1992. It seems the majority of his serves are around the 100mph mark.

By todays standards that seems pretty slow - anyone care to clarify why?

Datacipher 09-27-2009 03:05 AM

I've posted about this....about 1,000,0000 times. In fact, I wrote a very brief post about it, maybe 1 or 2 days ago, and mentioned Courier by name. If you read it, you'll understand.

pundekman 09-27-2009 06:53 AM

you shud see wilander's serve. that was a patsy. today's players will have time to tie their shoelaces before returning those day's serves

David_86 09-27-2009 08:13 AM

Quote:

you shud see wilander's serve. that was a patsy. today's players will have time to tie their shoelaces before returning those day's serves
Actually Wilander was a really intelligent server. He did not serve big but his first serve % was extremly high. If players stood inside the baseline to return then Wilander would put something extra on his serve. This meant opponents usually waited for a second serve to attack but since he hardly served any during a match it made life very difficult. Wilander is possibly the greatest tactician in tennis history.

drwood 09-27-2009 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trickster (Post 3978477)
Just watching a video of Courier vs Mcenroe at the US Open 1992. It seems the majority of his serves are around the 100mph mark.

By todays standards that seems pretty slow - anyone care to clarify why?

Courier's serve was actually VERY underrated...he could routinely hit the 110-120 range (which was high 15 years ago). Between 1991 and 1995 he was 6-0 against Agassi, and would routinely have double-digit ace numbers against him (the best returner of all time); his second serve wasn't extraordinary, but it was very hard to attack (similar to Roddick's 2nd serve today); it was a key to his beating Edberg in slams (91 French, 92 Aus, 93 Aus, 93 Wimbledon), as was his return of serve.

No_tricks 09-27-2009 12:04 PM

Courier owned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS1SXKJQAMg :razz:

grafselesfan 09-27-2009 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drwood (Post 3978884)
Courier's serve was actually VERY underrated...he could routinely hit the 110-120 range (which was high 15 years ago). Between 1991 and 1995 he was 6-0 against Agassi, and would routinely have double-digit ace numbers against him (the best returner of all time); his second serve wasn't extraordinary, but it was very hard to attack (similar to Roddick's 2nd serve today); it was a key to his beating Edberg in slams (91 French, 92 Aus, 93 Aus, 93 Wimbledon), as was his return of serve.

Poor Edberg, he was really Courier's lapdog during Jim's prime. If it wasnt for Courier then Edberg maybe could have ended up with 10 slams. The funny thing is Sampras had a harder time with Edberg than he did Courier so he was probably happy if Courier took Edberg out of events for him.

drwood 09-27-2009 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grafselesfan (Post 3979317)
Poor Edberg, he was really Courier's lapdog during Jim's prime. If it wasnt for Courier then Edberg maybe could have ended up with 10 slams. The funny thing is Sampras had a harder time with Edberg than he did Courier so he was probably happy if Courier took Edberg out of events for him.

Just like the 1993 Wimbledon final; I'm not sure that Sampras wins that final against Edberg. Conversely, I'm not sure Courier wins the 1993 Australian if Edberg dosn't take out Sampras in the SF.

The biggest reason Pete struggled more with Edberg is b/c Courier had a far superior BH return of serve and far superior BH passing shots. Obviously, these advantages were nullified against Pete, b/c Pete could simply serve Courier off of the court and win long rallies with his running FH (i.e. 1st set of 93 Wimbledon final).

Datacipher 09-27-2009 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pundekman (Post 3978716)
you shud see wilander's serve. that was a patsy. today's players will have time to tie their shoelaces before returning those day's serves

In reality, Wilander's flat serve often hit 110+ mph, which would register over 125+ mph today. That is why he began to get free points off his first serve, which were very well placed.

GS 09-27-2009 01:08 PM

Courier beefed up his serve before his retired in 2000. I saw him around 1998, and was surprised that he was hitting around 125 mph. But, the younger guys on the tour weren't having many problems with his stuff, so, after losing in early rounds, he later retired.

Datacipher 09-27-2009 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GS (Post 3979379)
Courier beefed up his serve before his retired in 2000. I saw him around 1998, and was surprised that he was hitting around 125 mph. But, the younger guys on the tour weren't having many problems with his stuff, so, after losing in early rounds, he later retired.


UGh.....sigh....read my post. You really think that after his arm problems, and late in his career, he figured out how to serve 15mph faster? Gee, too bad, he didnt' do that in 1991 eh? lol.

It's also good that Agassi got so much faster as he got old. Courier aced him over 20 times at the USO, with 100-117mph serves. lol!

J011yroger 09-27-2009 09:28 PM

Todays faster serve speeds are a product of the radar being more accurate, and picking up the speeds earlier.

Andy Murray wouldn't be hitting 137mph on 1991 radar.

J

Chopin 09-27-2009 09:45 PM

Courier is vastly overrated on these boards IMO.

A prime Courier would get destroyed by Federer or Nadal on clay. It wouldn't even be competitive against Nadal. If Courier were playing today he'd have exactly 0 slams.

J011yroger 09-27-2009 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopin (Post 3980444)
Courier is vastly overrated on these boards IMO.

A prime Courier would get destroyed by Federer or Nadal on clay. It wouldn't even be competitive against Nadal. If Courier were playing today he'd have exactly 0 slams.

I don't know how you can fault the guy for being born in 1970, he played who there was to play, and won or lost.

Even towards the end of his career around 99/00 he was playing competitively with guys like Nalbandian and Safin.

J

shabby 09-27-2009 11:52 PM

Nobody wanted to win like Jim.

Datacipher 09-28-2009 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J011yroger (Post 3980475)
I don't know how you can fault the guy for being born in 1970, he played who there was to play, and won or lost.

Even towards the end of his career around 99/00 he was playing competitively with guys like Nalbandian and Safin.

J

OH no! Listen to the troll! Ignore your eyes. Ignore common sense. Ignore a 2 steps slower Agassi still competing! Courier would get DESTROYED! Couldn't win a game! LOL.

GS 09-28-2009 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Datacipher (Post 3980400)
UGh.....sigh....read my post. You really think that after his arm problems, and late in his career, he figured out how to serve 15mph faster? Gee, too bad, he didnt' do that in 1991 eh? lol.

It's also good that Agassi got so much faster as he got old. Courier aced him over 20 times at the USO, with 100-117mph serves. lol!

Ugh, sigh. In the late 90s, Courier said he wanted to make one last big try on the tour, so he started lifting weights to beef up his serve and groundstrokes. Yes, he complained about his 'dead arm' in the 90s, but he recovered from that.
If you're such a Courier fan or foe, tell me how he did against Martin after the rain delay in Charlotte last weekend? Did he play Sampras in the final? Oh, you have to google it? Okay, we'll wait.....

GS 09-28-2009 11:23 AM

Ah, looks like Courier made it to the final, then beat Sampras yesterday.
If you know how big he served, please fill us in. Thanks.
(By the way, Pete double-faulted on match point.)

Datacipher 09-28-2009 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GS (Post 3981560)
Ugh, sigh. In the late 90s, Courier said he wanted to make one last big try on the tour, so he started lifting weights to beef up his serve and groundstrokes. Yes, he complained about his 'dead arm' in the 90s, but he recovered from that.
If you're such a Courier fan or foe, tell me how he did against Martin after the rain delay in Charlotte last weekend? Did he play Sampras in the final? Oh, you have to google it? Okay, we'll wait.....

WOW. He started 'lifting weights"???! ROFL. Priceless. Like the girls in the Stanford study I suppose! What can one say to this?

Chopin 09-28-2009 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Datacipher (Post 3980622)
OH no! Listen to the troll! Ignore your eyes. Ignore common sense. Ignore a 2 steps slower Agassi still competing! Courier would get DESTROYED! Couldn't win a game! LOL.

At least I don't correct other posters word choice, only to have them point out how I was wrong.

Oh, wait, that's you.

P.S. I'm still waiting for you to accept the wooden racquet challenge as a man of honour.


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