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-   -   Senior tennis and Ozzie Doubles (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=294102)

chess9 10-20-2009 07:42 AM

Senior tennis and Ozzie Doubles
 
My partner wants to play Ozzie doubles formation this Winter for our Senior league (50+). I'm a bit reluctant as I see the footwork issues on crossovers might be a bit too much for him in particular, and sometimes even for me. I'm not as fast as I once was. I'm thinking, KISS here.

As an occasional attempt to fluster some team, say, when we are losing, I think it's worth trying, but is it really superior for two right handers with combined ages of 130 years? ;)

I am a singles player primarily, but I'm being pulled into more and more doubles. It's probably the wheel chair and oxygen canister.... ;)

Does anyone have a recommendation, bookwise, or cd, or web site?

-Robert

Nellie 10-20-2009 08:32 AM

I think it depends on your serve - if you have a good wide serve, it is harder for the returner to go down the line (the weakness of the Australian). Imagine, for example, that the returner is off the side of the court, trying to hit the ball over the high part of the net and back into the court. Even if the returner gets some in - some returns will likely miss.

When you play the standard formation, the wide serve give a lot of angles for the returner to go crosscourt. With Australian, your partner is there to get those crosscourt returns.

I find recreational players often can get good results by going Australian on the ad court while going standard on the duece side, thereby allowing you to target serves at the backhand side of the returners.

LeeD 10-20-2009 09:01 AM

Assuming most 50+ year tennis players have some tennis experience, and mostly doubles, you guys in Aussie (not Ozzie) formation would do little to disrupt their games. They just lob DTL, forcing YOU to cover and start the point in DTL formation. And then they go DTL a few times before CC lobs, which can travel farther without going long, and easily over your netman.
Possibly the suggestion was fueled by YOUR lack of experience in doubles. I find few doubles teams ever have problems with Aussie formations, as it's NOT the normal, accepted, winning formation of choice for anyone.

chess9 10-20-2009 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nellie (Post 4042271)
I think it depends on your serve - if you have a good wide serve, it is harder for the returner to go down the line (the weakness of the Australian). Imagine, for example, that the returner is off the side of the court, trying to hit the ball over the high part of the net and back into the court. Even if the returner gets some in - some returns will likely miss.

When you play the standard formation, the wide serve give a lot of angles for the returner to go crosscourt. With Australian, your partner is there to get those crosscourt returns.

I find recreational players often can get good results by going Australian on the ad court while going standard on the duece side, thereby allowing you to target serves at the backhand side of the returners.

Yes, this is the suggestion he made. Ad court primarily. But, I worry about a cross court backhand-a shot I hit well-and the net man having to stop quickly and reach back to volley. I don't think this is a strong suit for my partner. His footwork is good, but not brilliant. On the plus side, I serve very hard, and can hit all three serves and all parts of the court. He is less strong on serve than me, but still a solid server.

Lee:

I reached exactly the same conclusion you did. And these older players are lob meisters. I see little advantage.

-Robert

SystemicAnomaly 10-20-2009 10:50 PM

Ozzie doubles, huh? Was this, perchance, a tennis formation developed by Ricky Nelson's dad (whose wife = Harriet)? Or perhaps this was a version of doubles developed by Black Sabbath where one or both partners are required to bite the head off a bat for every match lost?

SystemicAnomaly 10-20-2009 10:57 PM

Sorry Robert. Couldn't resist.

chess9 10-21-2009 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 4043919)
Sorry Robert. Couldn't resist.

No problemo! ;)

-Robert

larry10s 10-21-2009 03:21 AM

do you plan to have the net player always stay or will you be doing signals where the net player will cross sometimes and sometimes not? for you as a singles player the advantage of australian is you are starting off closer to the center more like your singles serving starting point.i disagree with nellie you dont want to serve wide unless that is a glaring weak return side. most serves should be up the middle so if the net player crosses hes closer to the ball when it crosses the net from the middle than if you serve wide.i agree many teams use aussie on the ad side so the server gets to hit a forehand(righty). aussie as the steady formation loses its novelty as the match goes on so i think it loses its effectiveness.I formation would be better as a steady (every)formation but older guys sometime have trouble bending down low enough and/or getting up fast enough from that position:(

larry10s 10-21-2009 03:24 AM

heres a link from operations doubles http://web.archive.org/web/200710231...les_tennis.htm

5263 10-21-2009 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry10s (Post 4044060)
do you plan to nave the net player always stay or will you be doing signals where the net player will cross sometimes and sometimes not? for you as a singles player the advantage of australian is you are starting off closer to the center more like your singles serving starting point.i disagree with nellie you dont want to serve wide unless that is a glaring weak return side. most serves should be up the middle so if the net player crosses hes closer to the ball when it crosses the net from the middle than if you serve wide.i agree many teams use aussie on the ad side so the server gets to hit a forehand(righty). aussie as the steady formation loses its novelty as the match goes on so i think it loses its effectiveness.I formation would be better as a steady (every)formation but older guys sometime have trouble bending down low enough and/or getting up fast enough from that position:(

With you on this Larry,
Standard formation is the standard for a good reason in this case. Other formations should be used as change ups and/or to take advantage of certain skill sets/ match ups (or lack there of).

LuckyR 10-21-2009 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chess9 (Post 4042115)
My partner wants to play Ozzie doubles formation this Winter for our Senior league (50+). I'm a bit reluctant as I see the footwork issues on crossovers might be a bit too much for him in particular, and sometimes even for me. I'm not as fast as I once was. I'm thinking, KISS here.

As an occasional attempt to fluster some team, say, when we are losing, I think it's worth trying, but is it really superior for two right handers with combined ages of 130 years? ;)

I am a singles player primarily, but I'm being pulled into more and more doubles. It's probably the wheel chair and oxygen canister.... ;)

Does anyone have a recommendation, bookwise, or cd, or web site?

-Robert

Australian formation has no inherant advantage when played as you say your partner wants to, ie both sides, every point, for no particular reason. In fact, since the server will have to travel a bit farther to cover routine returns and much, much farther to cover lobs, it has a low to moderate disadvantage.

Naturally we all know there are specific instances where it can provide a solution to a specific problem, but you aren't asking about that.

chess9 10-24-2009 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larry10s (Post 4044063)
heres a link from operations doubles http://web.archive.org/web/200710231...les_tennis.htm

Excellent resource. Many thanks!

-Robert

chess9 10-24-2009 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyR (Post 4044710)
Australian formation has no inherant advantage when played as you say your partner wants to, ie both sides, every point, for no particular reason. In fact, since the server will have to travel a bit farther to cover routine returns and much, much farther to cover lobs, it has a low to moderate disadvantage.

Naturally we all know there are specific instances where it can provide a solution to a specific problem, but you aren't asking about that.

Yes, I agree.

-Robert

Burt Turkoglu 10-24-2009 10:19 AM

Aussie Dubs
 
My partners and I have been using the Aussie formation when I serve for quite some time now and with good sucess. We play Over 50. I am well practiced using this formation while most of the returners I face are not. Advantage us. Higher net to return over. Also, up to 8 feet less to hit into. For players who can only play one side (deuce or ad), it takes away their favorite shots. Generally messes some people up. Serve most balls up the T and right at them and serve wide to keep them honest. Net man poaches about 30% of the time. It works for me because it's easier to avoid the returner's netman.

chess9 10-24-2009 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burt Turkoglu (Post 4052129)
My partners and I have been using the Aussie formation when I serve for quite some time now and with good sucess. We play Over 50. I am well practiced using this formation while most of the returners I face are not. Advantage us. Higher net to return over. Also, up to 8 feet less to hit into. For players who can only play one side (deuce or ad), it takes away their favorite shots. Generally messes some people up. Serve most balls up the T and right at them and serve wide to keep them honest. Net man poaches about 30% of the time. It works for me because it's easier to avoid the returner's netman.

What level are you playing?

I can hit a very hard forehand down the line, and will often do it returning in regular formation. So, I see some disadvantages for the serving side in such a scenario.

-Robert

ubermeyer 10-24-2009 11:56 AM

don't ever play aussie formation. you are leaving half the court open, and with all of the angles in doubles, that's not a good thing.

SystemicAnomaly 10-24-2009 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermeyer (Post 4052278)
don't ever play aussie formation. you are leaving half the court open, and with all of the angles in doubles, that's not a good thing.

You are not playing it correctly. The serving team might start in an up-back (or "I") formation but they do not stay that way -- as soon as the serve receiver has started their forward swing, the "up" player moves one way or the other. The "back" player moves accordingly.
.

larry10s 10-24-2009 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chess9 (Post 4052240)
What level are you playing?

I can hit a very hard forehand down the line, and will often do it returning in regular formation. So, I see some disadvantages for the serving side in such a scenario.

-Robert

if %80 of serves you face are up the T i dont think you go down the line that often

LeeD 10-26-2009 08:53 AM

I really think it DEPENDS on the return skills of your opposition. If they can only return well CC, then Aussie works.
However, serve me up the middle on either court, and my best topspin returns DTL come into play. I like to go into the alley from center position, and the low dipping heavy topspin shot is not easy to put away for the netman.
Unfortunately, I also have a weaker CC return, usually sliced, sometimes floatedly sliced, so it would do well to play normal and serve well wide to my backhand.

LuckyR 10-27-2009 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burt Turkoglu (Post 4052129)
My partners and I have been using the Aussie formation when I serve for quite some time now and with good sucess. We play Over 50. I am well practiced using this formation while most of the returners I face are not. Advantage us. Higher net to return over. Also, up to 8 feet less to hit into. For players who can only play one side (deuce or ad), it takes away their favorite shots. Generally messes some people up. Serve most balls up the T and right at them and serve wide to keep them honest. Net man poaches about 30% of the time. It works for me because it's easier to avoid the returner's netman.

Happy to hear of your good fortune but most >50 year olds around here are very good lobbers and giving them the CC lob would not be pretty, especially if you are playing S&V. In addition as you go up the middle the typical DTL return will be tailing away from the server and he is starting with a 1-2 step disadvantage since he is lining up on the wrong side.

Use with caution.


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