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-   -   Something is wrong with my elbow. Please help. (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=312264)

freedomtennis 02-10-2010 04:30 PM

Something is wrong with my elbow. Please help.
 
Every time I extend my elbow it hurts.

CAM178 02-10-2010 04:36 PM

Sounds like tennis elbow. A bad, bad case. If it is, my guesstimate is minimum 3 months of no tennis, no weights, and restricted activities. Take it from someone who has had this 3 times. The first time I got dared to play someone while I had the tendinitis, and it took me out for a year.

Lesson: don't muck around with this. This is a very serious injury. If it's hurting that badly, chances are good that the tendon is torn, and you are going to have to give it time to heal.

Why doesn't it hurt while you play? That's what I asked when mine was ongoing. It's because the damage is done, and because the arm basically goes numb while you play. You're focusing on the match, instead of the injury. Some injuries can not be overlooked during a match (groin, shoulder, knee, etc.), but most anybody can play through elbow. Take my advice: let it heal.

freedomtennis 02-10-2010 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAM178 (Post 4389171)
Sounds like tennis elbow. A bad, bad case. If it is, my guesstimate is minimum 3 months of no tennis, no weights, and restricted activities. Take it from someone who has had this 3 times. The first time I got dared to play someone while I had the tendinitis, and it took me out for a year.

Lesson: don't muck around with this. This is a very serious injury. If it's hurting that badly, chances are good that the tendon is torn, and you are going to have to give it time to heal.

Why doesn't it hurt while you play? That's what I asked when mine was ongoing. It's because the damage is done, and because the arm basically goes numb while you play. You're focusing on the match, instead of the injury. Some injuries can not be overlooked during a match (groin, shoulder, knee, etc.), but most anybody can play through elbow. Take my advice: let it heal.

but I get it in both elbows so it cant be just from tennis because I am right handed. I also dont get pain from anything but lifting. Also the pain is very little and tennis elbow occurs on the opposite side of the elbow which I am not reffering to. Anyways I am gonna go to the doc soon but I just want to know what it is. Looked all over the internet but didn't find much.

CAM178 02-10-2010 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freedomtennis (Post 4389308)
but I get it in both elbows so it cant be just from tennis because I am right handed. I also dont get pain from anything but lifting. Also the pain is very little and tennis elbow occurs on the opposite side of the elbow which I am not reffering to. Anyways I am gonna go to the doc soon but I just want to know what it is. Looked all over the internet but didn't find much.

If it's on the opposite side, then it's golfer's elbow. I've had both, and I don't play golf. Still sounds like a torn tendon or muscle.

mike53 02-11-2010 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freedomtennis (Post 4389308)
but I get it in both elbows so it cant be just from tennis because I am right handed. I also dont get pain from anything but lifting. Also the pain is very little and tennis elbow occurs on the opposite side of the elbow which I am not reffering to. Anyways I am gonna go to the doc soon but I just want to know what it is. Looked all over the internet but didn't find much.

Try searching for "hypermobile ulnar nerve"

SuperDuy 02-11-2010 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAM178 (Post 4389330)
If it's on the opposite side, then it's golfer's elbow. I've had both, and I don't play golf. Still sounds like a torn tendon or muscle.

I think hes talking about on both arms,

charliefedererer 02-11-2010 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike53 (Post 4390806)
Try searching for "hypermobile ulnar nerve"

It certainly sounds like it.

In a study of 200 people, I was surprised that the ulnar nerve moved from its normal location in back of the elbow, to a position in front of the elbow (by moving medially over the tip of elbow) in 20% of people. http://www.jhs-euro.com/cgi/content/abstract/25/1/85 That's pretty common. And the movement of the nerve would certainly fit with the sensation the OP is describing.

That study also found that while the ulnar nerve was about 3x2 mm in men, in those with a hypermobile ulnar nerve the nerve was usually somewhat larger.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3Den%26sa%3DN

freedomtennis 02-11-2010 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliefedererer (Post 4391672)
It certainly sounds like it.

In a study of 200 people, I was surprised that the ulnar nerve moved from its normal location in back of the elbow, to a position in front of the elbow (by moving medially over the tip of elbow) in 20% of people. http://www.jhs-euro.com/cgi/content/abstract/25/1/85 That's pretty common. And the movement of the nerve would certainly fit with the sensation the OP is describing.

That study also found that while the ulnar nerve was about 3x2 mm in men, in those with a hypermobile ulnar nerve the nerve was usually somewhat larger.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3Den%26sa%3DN

so is surgery the only options cause I am only 14 years old : ( : (

Tina 02-11-2010 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliefedererer (Post 4391672)
It certainly sounds like it.

In a study of 200 people, I was surprised that the ulnar nerve moved from its normal location in back of the elbow, to a position in front of the elbow (by moving medially over the tip of elbow) in 20% of people. http://www.jhs-euro.com/cgi/content/abstract/25/1/85 That's pretty common. And the movement of the nerve would certainly fit with the sensation the OP is describing.

That study also found that while the ulnar nerve was about 3x2 mm in men, in those with a hypermobile ulnar nerve the nerve was usually somewhat larger.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3Den%26sa%3DN

A flexbar really helps prevent tennis elbow??

charliefedererer 02-12-2010 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freedomtennis (Post 4392278)
so is surgery the only options cause I am only 14 years old : ( : (

The study above used ultrasound to see how many people in the general population had an ulnar nerve that moved from in back of the protusion of the inner aspect of the elbow (the medial epicondyle) to around the side of this bony protrusion and end up slightly more on top of the elbow area. This study found that 1 in 5 people have an ulnar nerve that moves like this. No one needs surgery just because the nerve moves like this. It is just a pretty common variation from the usual behavior of the nerve to stay in back of the inner bony protrusion of the inner elbow (medial epicondyle) as the arm is flexed and extended. It may be that doing all those curls may cause some nerve irritation from it's moving, but you are juming to conclusions that this is your problem if you have not been examined medically.
I did not intend to cause you any worry that you need surgery.
A web site is not a place where you can get any definitive diagnosis or treatment. If the arm is continuing to bother you, you should be checked out medically.
(You do know that it is the triceps and not the biceps that is the important upper arm muscle for tennis, don't you? And that if you are interested in a set of exercises to help prevent injury while playing tennis, you should be doing the thrower's ten: www.asmi.org/SportsMed/throwing/thrower10)

charliefedererer 02-12-2010 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tina (Post 4392307)
A flexbar really helps prevent tennis elbow??

It seems to, or at least holds the promise to prevent tennis elbow.

If you go back through this section you will see several threads on the Flexbar.

It's first appearence on these boards was a posting by I think chess9 about a piece in the New York Times. It reported that at an orthopedic medical meeting a study had been done that use of the Flexbar resulted in something like 80% of patient's improving from tennis elbow, versus about 30% who improved from "usual" physical therapy measures. As far as I know, the study has yet to be published in a medical journal with all of the details.

Several people recovering from tennis elbow have posted here that it helped them.

I don't think that there is any data to show that the Flexbar prevents tennis elbow in someone who has never suffered from it. But it is generally agreed that strengthening the forearm muscles by doing wrist curls/reverse curls/twists is a way of helping to prevent tennis elbow. Finally intrigued by this device, and seeing it did not cost too much, I bought one. I think the twisting motion is unique, and different from what I could do with dumbells. Will it help me from developing a problem I've never had before? I certainly hope so.
Basically the Flexbar can strengthen the forearm muscles. Stronger forearm

freedomtennis 02-12-2010 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliefedererer (Post 4393424)
The study above used ultrasound to see how many people in the general population had an ulnar nerve that moved from in back of the protusion of the inner aspect of the elbow (the medial epicondyle) to around the side of this bony protrusion and end up slightly more on top of the elbow area. This study found that 1 in 5 people have an ulnar nerve that moves like this. No one needs surgery just because the nerve moves like this. It is just a pretty common variation from the usual behavior of the nerve to stay in back of the inner bony protrusion of the inner elbow (medial epicondyle) as the arm is flexed and extended. It may be that doing all those curls may cause some nerve irritation from it's moving, but you are juming to conclusions that this is your problem if you have not been examined medically.
I did not intend to cause you any worry that you need surgery.
A web site is not a place where you can get any definitive diagnosis or treatment. If the arm is continuing to bother you, you should be checked out medically.
(You do know that it is the triceps and not the biceps that is the important upper arm muscle for tennis, don't you? And that if you are interested in a set of exercises to help prevent injury while playing tennis, you should be doing the thrower's ten: www.asmi.org/SportsMed/throwing/thrower10)

Okay thanks for the info. Looks like I am gonna have to get this checked but I dont understand why it got there? Its really weird cause I thought the nerve passes through a tunnel and it cant move.

mike53 02-12-2010 10:24 AM

Change the angle of your arms or wrists until you can do your curls without any trouble. You can try hammer curls, ez-bar curls, incline curls, concentration curls, preacher curls, ... one of these will surely work for you.

I almost forgot, you can wear a compression strap on your forearm.

Tina 02-12-2010 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliefedererer (Post 4393461)
It seems to, or at least holds the promise to prevent tennis elbow.

If you go back through this section you will see several threads on the Flexbar.

It's first appearence on these boards was a posting by I think chess9 about a piece in the New York Times. It reported that at an orthopedic medical meeting a study had been done that use of the Flexbar resulted in something like 80% of patient's improving from tennis elbow, versus about 30% who improved from "usual" physical therapy measures. As far as I know, the study has yet to be published in a medical journal with all of the details.

Several people recovering from tennis elbow have posted here that it helped them.

I don't think that there is any data to show that the Flexbar prevents tennis elbow in someone who has never suffered from it. But it is generally agreed that strengthening the forearm muscles by doing wrist curls/reverse curls/twists is a way of helping to prevent tennis elbow. Finally intrigued by this device, and seeing it did not cost too much, I bought one. I think the twisting motion is unique, and different from what I could do with dumbells. Will it help me from developing a problem I've never had before? I certainly hope so.
Basically the Flexbar can strengthen the forearm muscles. Stronger forearm

Thank you for your Info. Have a great evening! -Tina

charliefedererer 02-12-2010 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freedomtennis (Post 4393780)
Okay thanks for the info. Looks like I am gonna have to get this checked but I dont understand why it got there? Its really weird cause I thought the nerve passes through a tunnel and it cant move.

But what that ultrasound study shows is that about 20% of people don't have that tunnel to keep the nerve from moving. Almost none of them ever noticed it. The only time someone notices it is if they are doing repetitive heavy lifting either with weights like you, or as part of a job.
As mike53 suggests there are ways you can get around this by varying your workout exercise, or maybe wearing that arm band.

g4driver 02-13-2010 04:37 AM

Here's the link I think your were referring to. I asked a Physical Therapist who hits with me in a drill to look at the article and she if she would watch me do the exercise to ensure I'm doing them properly. She was well versed in eccentric exercises, and told me to order the bars from amazon, and that she would monitor my progress on Saturday prior to hitting and after hitting.

My .02 on Physical Therapy. I had two back surgeries from a neurosurgeon in 2008, a laminectomy, followed by a fusion after the laminectomy didn't help. I spent 15 months away from work, 23 months off the courts, and five months in PT post-fusion. The three PTs I worked with three days a week, two hours a day, gave me my life back. When I first started PT, I didn't do the exercises properly, and with two titanium screws in my lower back, the PTs were incredible. They became more like friends. I felt like Norm walking into Cheers, when I walked in every M-W-F.

Sure you can watch the youtube video, but if you arm is hurting, pay cash to see a PT and ask them to look at this article with you during your appointment. If you have a laptop, bring it after cutting and pasting the article, and downloading the video with a Youtube downloader.

What I took away from the study is this approach will not prevent tennis elbow, but rather deal with effectively for not a lot of coin.

"In a medical advance inspired by recessionary thinking, researchers from the Nicholas Institute of Sports Medicine and Athletic Trauma at Lenox Hill Hospital in New York City announced last month that they’ve developed an effective and supremely cheap treatment for chronic tennis elbow. Huddling a while back to brainstorm about inexpensive methods for combating the injury, the scientists glanced around their offices and noticed a homely, low-tech rubber bar, about 8 inches long, which, at the time, was being used for general physical therapy programs. The researchers wondered whether the ribbed, pliable bars, available for less than $20, might be re-purposed to treat tennis elbow. The answer, it soon become clear, was a resounding yes."

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0...-tennis-elbow/

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliefedererer (Post 4393461)
It seems to, or at least holds the promise to prevent tennis elbow.

If you go back through this section you will see several threads on the Flexbar.

It's first appearence on these boards was a posting by I think chess9 about a piece in the New York Times. It reported that at an orthopedic medical meeting a study had been done that use of the Flexbar resulted in something like 80% of patient's improving from tennis elbow, versus about 30% who improved from "usual" physical therapy measures. As far as I know, the study has yet to be published in a medical journal with all of the details.

Several people recovering from tennis elbow have posted here that it helped them.

I don't think that there is any data to show that the Flexbar prevents tennis elbow in someone who has never suffered from it. But it is generally agreed that strengthening the forearm muscles by doing wrist curls/reverse curls/twists is a way of helping to prevent tennis elbow. Finally intrigued by this device, and seeing it did not cost too much, I bought one. I think the twisting motion is unique, and different from what I could do with dumbells. Will it help me from developing a problem I've never had before? I certainly hope so.
Basically the Flexbar can strengthen the forearm muscles. Stronger forearm


charliefedererer 02-13-2010 06:17 AM

Quote:

g4driver;4395711Here's the link I think your were referring to.
Thanks for the link.

Quote:

Sure you can watch the youtube video, but if you arm is hurting, pay cash to see a PT and ask them to look at this article with you during your appointment.
No question about it, physical therapists work their "miracles" every day. Their observation and feedback based on extensive work with other patients can avoid missteps that not only can prevent people from making progress, but actually set them back as they go about their own rehab in too often the wrong way.

Quote:

What I took away from the study is this approach will not prevent tennis elbow, but rather deal with effectively for not a lot of coin.
A "scientific" study to demonstrate that the Flexbar prevents tennis elbow in players who never had it will never be done. The cost of conducting such a study would be astronomical. That's because it would have to involve probably thousands of players to pass an ethics review board. Why thousands? Even though the Times article quotes that up to 50% of tennis players eventually develop tennis elbow, in any one year it is only a few percent. There are now software programs that will tell you how many people would have to be in a study in order to show there is a statistically valid difference in the two groups with a probability of less than 5 in 100 (p<.05).
But the Times did make the valid point that unfortunately most Americans have woefully weak foreams. Many take up tennis "for their health", but as they progress can hit the ball harder and harder, and start to play more and more. At some point tennis elbow happens in way too many, but at what stage of their "tennis career" is hard to predict. So my take is that it is not a bad idea to use the Flexbar as a preventative measure, even though there is no "scientifiec study" to prove this. But doing the "Tyler twist" does seem to take the hands/wrist/forearm through a more full range of motion than I was getting from doing forearm dumbell curls/reverse curls/twists.

g4driver 02-13-2010 07:48 AM

charliefedererer,

I never meant to imply a study would be done to test the hypothesis that the "Tyler Twist with a Flexbar" would prevent tennis elbow. My words weren't clear and I can clearly see how poorly I worded that sentence. Unfortunately, this forum doesn't allow users to edit a post with a clear mistake like the one I typed, even when it is a legitimate mistake.

I simply meant to state the "Tyler Twist" is, according to the article, an effective way treatment for tennis elbow for less than $20. The author never claimed it would prevent tennis elbow and you gave a great reason why, as the cost of the study to "prove prevention of tennis elbow by using a Flexbar" would be enormous.

You and I are in complete agreement in doing this easy exercise might well prevent tennis elbow, even though no scientific data exists to support the claim. My only regret is I wish I would have been doing this exercise when I was doing all my other PT in late 2008 and early 2009. :cry: Hopefully, hitting only two days a week, not hitting three days in a row, and doing the Tyler Twist will cure me. I'll make another post in a few weeks after I get my Flexbar.

GPB 02-13-2010 08:33 AM

you can edit your posts after a certain time (something like 50 posts on your record). just fyi.

charliefedererer 02-13-2010 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g4driver (Post 4396063)
charliefedererer,

I never meant to imply a study would be done to test the hypothesis that the "Tyler Twist with a Flexbar" would prevent tennis elbow. My words weren't clear and I can clearly see how poorly I worded that sentence. Unfortunately, this forum doesn't allow users to edit a post with a clear mistake like the one I typed, even when it is a legitimate mistake.

I simply meant to state the "Tyler Twist" is, according to the article, an effective way treatment for tennis elbow for less than $20. The author never claimed it would prevent tennis elbow and you gave a great reason why, as the cost of the study to "prove prevention of tennis elbow by using a Flexbar" would be enormous.

You and I are in complete agreement in doing this easy exercise might well prevent tennis elbow, even though no scientific data exists to support the claim. My only regret is I wish I would have been doing this exercise when I was doing all my other PT in late 2008 and early 2009. :cry: Hopefully, hitting only two days a week, not hitting three days in a row, and doing the Tyler Twist will cure me. I'll make another post in a few weeks after I get my Flexbar.

No worries, mate. Welcome to TT!


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