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-   -   Problem with self rate with Usta league play (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=327604)

Who Dey Nation 05-12-2010 09:50 PM

Problem with self rate with Usta league play
 
Hi all, im trying to join a 4.5 league this season...only problem is the self rating part. I took about 3 years off from tennis during college. However based off http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/site...oc_13_7372.pdf I am a 5.5 because I was number 16 in my section about 5 years ago in 18 and under and im still under 30. So when I went to register for the league its said I was a 5.5 (which I am not)

Will this effect me in a negative way, or effect the team in any way?

Is there a way to correct this? I played in a 4.5 doubles tourney two months ago and won, so wouldnt I be a 4.5 by default?

MayDay 05-12-2010 10:21 PM

Are you serious?

Based on what I've read in other posts, you're probably not going to get much sympathy from TT'ers. Get ready for the sand bagging title.

subban 05-13-2010 07:01 AM

Well if you really feel your a 4.5 and not being a ringer you could appeal. Otherwise try 5.5, so you get blown out most matches at least you'll get to run around and play a more competitive player. After a year, you get bumped down.

Nellie 05-13-2010 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Who Dey Nation (Post 4646389)
Hi all, im trying to join a 4.5 league this season...only problem is the self rating part. I took about 3 years off from tennis during college. However based off http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/site...oc_13_7372.pdf I am a 5.5 because I was number 16 in my section about 5 years ago in 18 and under and im still under 30. So when I went to register for the league its said I was a 5.5 (which I am not)

Will this effect me in a negative way, or effect the team in any way?

Is there a way to correct this? I played in a 4.5 doubles tourney two months ago and won, so wouldnt I be a 4.5 by default?

I understand what you mean about the section ranking being an inaccurate measure of your skill - I have a friend that had a section ranking he is a bad player, but did so many tournaments that he could ranking points.

However, the USTA does not care about your skill level. You cannot self-rate as a 4.5 without being dishonest with the computer (by lying about your section ranking). If you play matches as a 4.5 and someone files a grievance, you will be DQed and your team may forfeit matches (depending on local rules). This is a situation where grievances actually work extremely efficiently because there is no discretion for the league. The question is not whether you are a 4.5 player but rather, whether you meet any the requirements that would preclude you from rating as a 4.5.

Regarding your tournament result, I am confused by your question (since a 5.5 player should win a 4.5 tournament!). If you had close matches, you should check to see if you have a computer ranking now or at the end of the year based on tournament performance.

goober 05-13-2010 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Who Dey Nation (Post 4646389)
Hi all, im trying to join a 4.5 league this season...only problem is the self rating part. I took about 3 years off from tennis during college. However based off http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/site...oc_13_7372.pdf I am a 5.5 because I was number 16 in my section about 5 years ago in 18 and under and im still under 30. So when I went to register for the league its said I was a 5.5 (which I am not)

Will this effect me in a negative way, or effect the team in any way?

Is there a way to correct this? I played in a 4.5 doubles tourney two months ago and won, so wouldnt I be a 4.5 by default?

First if you win a 4.5 tourney you should be 4.5 or higher not 4.5 by default.

Being top 20 in your section, even in a weak section should be better than 4.5. Did you have a national ranking? Maybe you don't play as much as you did then, but what are you- 23 years old? You easily get back into playing form in a couple months or so.

I would not play for this 4.5 team, unless you inform them that you could get DQ'ed if someone files a grievance or just by 3 strikes. I would say that there is a high chance that either of those will happen. Even if you don't have 3 strikes against you from match play all it takes is one person to find out about your background and you are in pretty much toast.

Ripper014 05-13-2010 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 4647395)
First if you win a 4.5 tourney you should be 4.5 or higher not 4.5 by default.

Actually if you win a 4.5 tourney this automatically would make you a 5.0 plus... since you have not made it to your potential. Until you lose and lose consistantly you have no idea what your level of play is. But obviously it is not 4.5

goober 05-13-2010 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper014 (Post 4647421)
Actually if you win a 4.5 tourney this automatically would make you a 5.0 plus... since you have not made it to your potential. Until you lose and lose consistantly you have no idea what your level of play is. But obviously it is not 4.5

Automatically? uh...NO. As I said it would make you 4.5 of higher. Consider the following scenarios.

1) It was a weak tourney with a lot of 4.0s playing in the draw.
2) He played in a doubles tournament. What if he had a 5.0-5.5 sandbagging partner (unrated obviously)? A 4.0 could conceivably win a 4.5 doubles tournament.
3) He won the tournament but all his matches went 3 sets and were close. I would say he is playing at the right level.

Potential has nothing to do current rating.

Ripper014 05-13-2010 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 4647566)
Automatically? uh...NO. As I said it would make you 4.5 of higher. Consider the following scenarios.

1) It was a weak tourney with a lot of 4.0s playing in the draw.
2) He played in a doubles tournament. What if he had a 5.0-5.5 sandbagging partner (unrated obviously)? A 4.0 could conceivably win a 4.5 doubles tournament.
3) He won the tournament but all his matches went 3 sets and were close. I would say he is playing at the right level.

Potential has nothing to do current rating.

As far as I know... the next level up from 4.5 is 5.0 and since he has not capped out... I added the plus. And he says he won a 4.5 tournament the only result he is offering for us to use to judge his skills, so I stand by my statement.

I do agree though that if you were playing a weak draw of 4.0's it may make a difference... but will the USTA care... since you have points from a 4.5 tourney.

Who Dey Nation 05-13-2010 09:26 AM

Well thanks to everyone for your informative replies...after reading so many sandbagging post here I just wanted to make sure that my team would not get penalized.

Ill guess see how my first matches go. Also how would one appeal?

goober 05-13-2010 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper014 (Post 4647615)
As far as I know... the next level up from 4.5 is 5.0 and since he has not capped out... I added the plus. And he says he won a 4.5 tournament the only result he is offering for us to use to judge his skills, so I stand by my statement.

I do agree though that if you were playing a weak draw of 4.0's it may make a difference... but will the USTA care... since you have points from a 4.5 tourney.


Would the USTA care? I doubt personally. But the USTA algorithm will care. Your rating is calculated based on your opponents rating and your scores. You are confusing tournament points/ranking with USTA rating.

Your rating has *nothing* to do with what level tournament you were in only what level your opponents were and what were your scores. If you enter an Open level tourney and in the first round you beat a 3.5 and in the second round you beat a 4.0 who had a first round bye, that is not going boost your rating if you are a 4.5 player and it may even lower your rating if you had close matches.

Now winning those 2 open level matches will give you points which will count towards your ranking in the open division in your USTA region but it has nothing to do with your actual ratings. In fact I personally know some 4.0 and 4.5s that have have Open level rankings, but that is only because they play a lot of tournaments and get some wins when other 4.0s and 4.5s sign up.

Ripper014 05-13-2010 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 4647748)
Would the USTA care? I doubt personally. But the USTA algorithm will care. Your rating is calculated based on your opponents rating and your scores. You are confusing tournament points/ranking with USTA rating.

Your rating has *nothing* to do with what level tournament you were in only what level your opponents were and what were your scores. If you enter an Open level tourney and in the first round you beat a 3.5 and in the second round you beat a 4.0 who had a first round bye, that is not going boost your rating if you are a 4.5 player and it may even lower your rating if you had close matches.

Now winning those 2 open level matches will give you points which will count towards your ranking in the open division in your USTA region but it has nothing to do with your actual ratings. In fact I personally know some 4.0 and 4.5s that have have Open level rankings, but that is only because they play a lot of tournaments and get some wins when other 4.0s and 4.5s sign up.

I agree with everything you have written here... but I find it hard to believe that in a 4.5 tourney there is not at least few 4.5 teams and the computer I believe would treat your team as one entity not two seperate individuals. But I could be wrong...

justinmadison 05-13-2010 10:24 AM

I looked at several of the USTA sections to see what a #16 ranked player would be nationally.

SoCal 135
Intermountain 324
Missouri Valley 336
Pacific Northwest 526
Eastern 146
Florida 129

The range between sections does seem extreme. With that being said, I looked up the players on tennisrecruiting and players around #500 nationally were all 3 star seniors. My son is a 3 star 8th grader and he beats mostl of the 4.5 players in my district. He would not be a ringer on the 4.5 team, but he would definitely be in the top half of the group.

A 3 star senior is not a 4.5. Not even close. 5.5 is difficult to quantify. The range of talent in that group is large. You are either a 5.0 or 5.5, hard to tell.

bodieq 05-13-2010 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Who Dey Nation (Post 4647667)
Well thanks to everyone for your informative replies...after reading so many sandbagging post here I just wanted to make sure that my team would not get penalized.

Ill guess see how my first matches go. Also how would one appeal?


Maybe I'm missing something, but how are you able to roster/play on a 4.5 league team if your NTRP rating is "5.5?" And how were you able to play in a 4.5 doubles tournament with a 5.5 rating?

West Coast Ace 05-14-2010 04:57 PM

As Raiden031 said so eloquently in another of these threads, this is just another example of someone who wants to come back and win at the same % they are accustom to. Instead of coming back at the rightful level and taking his lumps. Or just playing informal matches until they regain their form.

Very least is you should play 5.0. I'm sure if you tell your new team - if they don't already know - they'll say "just don't win too easily - hit 2nd serves until it's 3-3 in the set."

AlpineCadet 05-20-2010 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by West Coast Ace (Post 4652846)
As Raiden031 said so eloquently in another of these threads, this is just another example of someone who wants to come back and win at the same % they are accustom to. Instead of coming back at the rightful level and taking his lumps. Or just playing informal matches until they regain their form.

Very least is you should play 5.0. I'm sure if you tell your new team - if they don't already know - they'll say "just don't win too easily - hit 2nd serves until it's 3-3 in the set."

You said it.

HookEmJeff 05-20-2010 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinmadison (Post 4647848)
I looked at several of the USTA sections to see what a #16 ranked player would be nationally.

SoCal 135
Intermountain 324
Missouri Valley 336
Pacific Northwest 526
Eastern 146
Florida 129

The range between sections does seem extreme. With that being said, I looked up the players on tennisrecruiting and players around #500 nationally were all 3 star seniors. My son is a 3 star 8th grader and he beats mostl of the 4.5 players in my district. He would not be a ringer on the 4.5 team, but he would definitely be in the top half of the group.

A 3 star senior is not a 4.5. Not even close. 5.5 is difficult to quantify. The range of talent in that group is large. You are either a 5.0 or 5.5, hard to tell.

I think this is something the USTA needs to look closely at, these 17 year old high school seniors playing USTA Adult League Tennis (and turning 18 in the calendar year).

I'm all for competition, and I like playing young kids. My only thing is are the Sections holding on and judging kids by those Elite Player Guidelines when it's obvious that those standards don't fit (based on those rankings above)? Some could be WAY better, others could be WAY worse.

Obviously, it's pretty different where that Top 20 Section kid falls in the ability levels locally...and national ability levels? But, what are the NTRP Elite Player Guidelines for then? A kid in So Cal at No. 18 may be a solid solid 5.5 A kid in Northern or Hawaii may be a 4.5? How do you determine? Should that type of subjectivity be left up in the air?

The other question that begs to be answered is the timing of a kid accepting a scholarship offer to say...a DI school. It's really an issue of semantics as to how a 17-year-old would answer his/her self-rate question of 'are you playing college tennis?

Here's the kid sitting in front of their computer:
"Well, technically, no, I'm not playing college tennis. I just signed a letter to play at (Insert DI School), but no I'm not currently playing." What do I do? I can tell you what that unscrupulous captain's going to tell that kid.

I think it's a real slippery slope with high schoolers playing adult leagues and I think abuses can run wild at the upper levels (4.5 and 5.0), especially given that college question.

I'm all for them finding their way into the leagues as they age up. Leagues definitely need some younger blood. I just worry that the abuses of captains who really could care a lick about a kid, but just want them on their team for singles players.

Another point to ponder is many of these kids' league situations are
1) Almost all are subject to dynamic DQ's all the way through the season since they are self-raters. That puts your team in a precarious position if they strike out.

and

2) Leaving for college in the summer, right around the time USTA Section Championship events are ramping up.

Your 17 or 18-year old helps you get to the District or Section championships, then off to school he/she goes to play college, leaving a team high and dry. And how could you blame him/her...he/she is now going on to to college tennis, where they play for more than just a cooler and a pen.



Jeff

JavierLW 05-20-2010 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Who Dey Nation (Post 4646389)
I played in a 4.5 doubles tourney two months ago and won, so wouldnt I be a 4.5 by default?

How would winning the tournament peg you at 4.5?

It just means you are AT LEAST 4.5, if not more....

It also means that if your intention is to just "have fun, play tennis", you likely would be competitive at 5.0 even it means you wont automatically win every match....

I know that generally they may let you self-rate appeal down a level, but they wont let you appeal down two levels.


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