Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Adult League & Tournament Talk (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=35)
-   -   Changed Call: Let Or Loss Of Point? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=327942)

Cindysphinx 05-15-2010 02:36 AM

Changed Call: Let Or Loss Of Point?
 
I was playing a match last night that went to a 10-point tiebreak. We were down 7-9 with opponent serving to my partner.

Partner returns the ball from the deuce court high and sharply crosscourt with enough angle that the side curtains are making life difficult for the deep opponent. Ball bounces inside the doubles sideline. I was at net and shifted over to cover my alley. Opponent barely gets to the ball and gets it back deep.

And that's when I heard it: "Out!"

Opposing net player had called my partner's ball out when it was obviously in. She had a bad angle and was calling a ball while looking across a line, obviously, which is what caused her error. I am sure of this because I was looking down the line.

I walked up and said something like, "Are you calling that out? Seriously? On match point?"

Opponent said, "Hold on, hold on." She asked her partner, who said she didn't see it. There was some further discussion -- can't remember details. Then the opponent said, "Cindy, since you're sure the ball was in, you can have the point."

I said, "I appreciate that. But since your partner put the ball back in play and you're changing your out call to good, I think we should replay the point. That seems fair."

As I sit here, I am not sure I was correct. Maybe it was our point? I've never fully understood when you play a let when a player changes an out call to good and when it is loss of point. I know that when an official overrules a player's call in an officiated match, it is always loss of point, but how does this work when there is no official?

Regardless, I feel OK about not taking the point. I went way past "Are you sure?" in challenging her call, and I have to give this opponent credit for being willing to accept loss of point at such a critical time in the match. I also think it laudable that she didn't just say, "I saw it out" and stick her hand over the net to shake hands.

How should this have been handled?

Bud 05-15-2010 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4653630)
I was playing a match last night that went to a 10-point tiebreak. We were down 7-9 with opponent serving to my partner.

Partner returns the ball from the deuce court high and sharply crosscourt with enough angle that the side curtains are making life difficult for the deep opponent. Ball bounces inside the doubles sideline. I was at net and shifted over to cover my alley. Opponent barely gets to the ball and gets it back deep.

And that's when I heard it: "Out!"

Opposing net player had called my partner's ball out when it was obviously in. She had a bad angle and was calling a ball while looking across a line, obviously, which is what caused her error. I am sure of this because I was looking down the line.

I walked up and said something like, "Are you calling that out? Seriously? On match point?"

Opponent said, "Hold on, hold on." She asked her partner, who said she didn't see it. There was some further discussion -- can't remember details. Then the opponent said, "Cindy, since you're sure the ball was in, you can have the point."

I said, "I appreciate that. But since your partner put the ball back in play and you're changing your out call to good, I think we should replay the point. That seems fair."

As I sit here, I am not sure I was correct. Maybe it was our point? I've never fully understood when you play a let when a player changes an out call to good and when it is loss of point. I know that when an official overrules a player's call in an officiated match, it is always loss of point, but how does this work when there is no official?

Regardless, I feel OK about not taking the point. I went way past "Are you sure?" in challenging her call, and I have to give this opponent credit for being willing to accept loss of point at such a critical time in the match. I also think it laudable that she didn't just say, "I saw it out" and stick her hand over the net to shake hands.

How should this have been handled?

I think you're correct if she did in fact return the serve inside the court. IMO, it should be replayed with your partner receiving a 1st serve.

Sometimes, I'll make a verbal call too quickly (i.e. comes down at the last second on the outside of the line). If I return the ball and it goes inside the court, I'll replay the point. If I don't have a play on it or I spray it wide... I give my opponent the point.

dizzlmcwizzl 05-15-2010 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4653630)

As I sit here, I am not sure I was correct. Maybe it was our point? I've never fully understood when you play a let when a player changes an out call to good and when it is loss of point. I know that when an official overrules a player's call in an officiated match, it is always loss of point, but how does this work when there is no official?

How should this have been handled?

The code address this problem and the summary of it is this. "It depends". It seems from your description replaying the point was the right thing to do.


the code:

12. Out calls corrected. If a player mistakenly calls a ball “out” and then
realizes it was good, the point shall be replayed if the player returned the ball
within the proper court. Nonetheless, if the player’s return of the ball results
in a “weak sitter,” the player should give the opponent the point. If the player
failed to make the return, the opponent wins the point. If the mistake was
made on the second serve, the server is entitled to two serves

tennis tom 05-15-2010 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4653630)
Opposing net player had called my partner's ball out when it was obviously in. She had a bad angle and was calling a ball while looking across a line, obviously, which is what caused her error. I am sure of this because I was looking down the line.

She had no business making that call, NOT her call, calls like that are always suspect.

OrangePower 05-15-2010 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4653630)
Opponent barely gets to the ball and gets it back deep.

I assume the bolded part means the opponent got the ball back in, deep in the court. In this case it was correct to replay the point, since the opponent got the ball back into play, and it was not a 'sitter' that your team would expect to hit a winner off.

If you meant the bolded part to mean that the opponent hit the ball back out (behind your baseline), then it is your point and there is no let.

Cindysphinx 05-16-2010 06:13 AM

Here's the part of the Code that had me a bit hesitant:

Quote:

Opponent’s calls questioned. When a player genuinely doubts an opponent’s call, the player may ask: “Are you sure of your call?” If the opponent reaffirms that the ball was out, the call shall be accepted. If the opponent acknowledges uncertainty, the opponent loses the point. There shall be no
further delay or discussion.

JavierLW 05-16-2010 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4657616)
Here's the part of the Code that had me a bit hesitant:

You're partially taking out of context, but it's probably a case where that part was poorly written. (it assumes that if it's a "good" call that the team loses the point)

You dont win the point because you didnt do anything to win the point. The opponents made a honest mistake and there is no penalty anywhere in the Code for making honest mistakes. (it assumes that everyone is honest and fair, etc....)

andfor 05-16-2010 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis tom (Post 4654780)
She had no business making that call, NOT her call, calls like that are always suspect.

On the doubles court all line calls on each teams side of the net can be made be made by both players. The court is not divided in half.

tennis tom 05-16-2010 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andfor (Post 4657832)
On the doubles court all line calls on each teams side of the net can be made be made by both players. The court is not divided in half.

To play winning doubles the court should be divided in half, deuce and ad sides; yes either player can make the call but should they?Doing so leads to situations like the OP was involved in.

The player down the line has the best view and should make the call. If not sure they could ask for some help from partner to confirm. The opponent down that line would have a better view and if it's a "friendly" match, and, you wanted an accurate answer, ask your opponent (and have a lie-detector in your bag).

Cindysphinx 05-16-2010 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JavierLW (Post 4657769)
You're partially taking out of context, but it's probably a case where that part was poorly written. (it assumes that if it's a "good" call that the team loses the point)

You dont win the point because you didnt do anything to win the point. The opponents made a honest mistake and there is no penalty anywhere in the Code for making honest mistakes. (it assumes that everyone is honest and fair, etc....)

Yes, we did do something to win the point: My partner hit a ball that landed in the court.

I guess what's weird is that if our two opponents didn't get a good look at the ball, they have two choices: Call it good, or ask our opinion if they don't know. In either case, we would get the point.

And yes, there are plenty of penalties in the Code for "honest mistakes" (e.g. hitting a ball on wrong side of net, touching the net, double-hit, footfaults, hindrance . . . .).

Ripper014 05-16-2010 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis tom (Post 4654780)
She had no business making that call, NOT her call, calls like that are always suspect.

Anyone who sees the ball out can call it out. But I agree that if you have not won the point outright that the point should be restarted. ie. first serve, replay the point.

What I disagree with is making a statement like "Are you calling that out? Seriously? On match point?"

The correct response should be... “Are you sure of your call?” and then accept your opponents answer. Most opponents that have made a mistake usually correct themselves immediately... or their partner will. Those that are intentionally cheating are not going to change their calls.

Cindysphinx 05-16-2010 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripper014 (Post 4660345)
Anyone who sees the ball out can call it out. But I agree that if you have not won the point outright that the point should be restarted. ie. first serve, replay the point.

What I disagree with is making a statement like "Are you calling that out? Seriously? On match point?"

The correct response should be... “Are you sure of your call?” and then accept your opponents answer. Most opponents that have made a mistake usually correct themselves immediately... or their partner will. Those that are intentionally cheating are not going to change their calls.

Yep, I should have stuck with the language of the Code.

But Seriously. On match point? She was calling that out?

:)

DE19702 05-16-2010 04:07 PM

I disagree that the person looking down the line always has the best view for a line call. If you place a ball a few millimeters outside the line, if you look down the line the ball will be obscuring the line and you will not see the gap. This is especially true the lower the trajectory of the ball. However, if you look at the ball from across the court you will see the ball is out. The closer the viewer is to the ball the easier it is to see it. But I agree with you that looking from the far side is probably too far to see it accurately.

JavierLW 05-16-2010 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4660093)
Yes, we did do something to win the point: My partner hit a ball that landed in the court.

I guess what's weird is that if our two opponents didn't get a good look at the ball, they have two choices: Call it good, or ask our opinion if they don't know. In either case, we would get the point.

And yes, there are plenty of penalties in the Code for "honest mistakes" (e.g. hitting a ball on wrong side of net, touching the net, double-hit, footfaults, hindrance . . . .).

You did NOTHING to win the point because they were able to hit the ball back. You didnt force an error and you didnt hit a winner. Thus, you did not win the point....

I meant honest mistakes in the course of enforcing the rules, not actions that result in a loss of point.

Ripper014 05-16-2010 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4660399)
Yep, I should have stuck with the language of the Code.

But Seriously. On match point? She was calling that out?

:)

OUT is OUT... stuff happens. Like when I am either playing or watching a hockey game and they put the whistle away the last 10 minutes of a game because they don't want a game lost because of an infraction late in a game. In my opinion an infraction in the first 10 minutes should be no different than any other time in a game. By not calling it you denying the team that was violated an opportunity.

All you can hope for is that they are sure of their call... and that their partner confirms it. Sometimes I see a ball IN that both my opponents see as OUT... I am not arrogant enough to believe I am right ALL the time... just most of the time. :oops:

chatt_town 05-16-2010 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4653630)
I was playing a match last night that went to a 10-point tiebreak. We were down 7-9 with opponent serving to my partner.

Partner returns the ball from the deuce court high and sharply crosscourt with enough angle that the side curtains are making life difficult for the deep opponent. Ball bounces inside the doubles sideline. I was at net and shifted over to cover my alley. Opponent barely gets to the ball and gets it back deep.

And that's when I heard it: "Out!"

Opposing net player had called my partner's ball out when it was obviously in. She had a bad angle and was calling a ball while looking across a line, obviously, which is what caused her error. I am sure of this because I was looking down the line.

I walked up and said something like, "Are you calling that out? Seriously? On match point?"

Opponent said, "Hold on, hold on." She asked her partner, who said she didn't see it. There was some further discussion -- can't remember details. Then the opponent said, "Cindy, since you're sure the ball was in, you can have the point."

I said, "I appreciate that. But since your partner put the ball back in play and you're changing your out call to good, I think we should replay the point. That seems fair."

As I sit here, I am not sure I was correct. Maybe it was our point? I've never fully understood when you play a let when a player changes an out call to good and when it is loss of point. I know that when an official overrules a player's call in an officiated match, it is always loss of point, but how does this work when there is no official?

Regardless, I feel OK about not taking the point. I went way past "Are you sure?" in challenging her call, and I have to give this opponent credit for being willing to accept loss of point at such a critical time in the match. I also think it laudable that she didn't just say, "I saw it out" and stick her hand over the net to shake hands.

How should this have been handled?


I think you called that correctly...how does this though work with the "sitter" rule? I'm not sure how that goes but I think my partner got some guys with this in a championship match about 5 years ago. :) We are serving 5-2 in the third for the match against a team that had just beat us in the finals in Gainesville. I had to tell you all that just so you could see the drama unfold. So we kick the hell out of them 6-0 in the first. They come back and take the second 6-4. We are serving 5-2, 30-0 and I serve a missle down the middle of the court, the guy leans and drifts it back and as my partner is getting ready to basically bounce this off the court for a winner the retuner called it out. The partner said it was in and for me to take two. My partner then walks to the net(walking USTA manual) and says that it was a sitter and that the point was ours. He explained that a sitter is a ball that "should have and in all likely hood would have been put away so the point was ours. We go on get the next point for the match but I still catch hell today from the other two guys about it. :) My question is did he misinterpret the rule because it seems to contradict the what's going on here. He by no means was trying to screw them. he just plays everything by the rules straight up and down even if it's against us. That was just so happen to be in our favor. So what's the deal? Anyone here know?

dcdoorknob 05-17-2010 05:30 AM

Here's a related question: if someone is playing an officiated match, they call a ball out and a present official overrules them, do they get a let then? Or do they lose the point?

My first instinct before reading the responces was that in both cases, officiated or not, the player or team that called the ball out (which was later overturned) should lose the point. They stopped play when play should not have been stopped, due to no outside hindrance but only their own error. To me the natural result of that situation is the loss of the point.

Cindysphinx 05-17-2010 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcdoorknob (Post 4662172)
Here's a related question: if someone is playing an officiated match, they call a ball out and a present official overrules them, do they get a let then? Or do they lose the point?

My first instinct before reading the responces was that in both cases, officiated or not, the player or team that called the ball out (which was later overturned) should lose the point. They stopped play when play should not have been stopped, due to no outside hindrance but only their own error. To me the natural result of that situation is the loss of the point.

It works differently when there are roving officials. If a roving official sees you make a bad line call that you don't correct (so they have to correct you), it's loss of point.

I know this because I once played a tournament where my opponent called my shot on her baseline long on match point. The roving official happened to be right there, overruled her, and awarded me the point and the match.

Cindysphinx 05-17-2010 06:09 AM

Chattown, I think your partner was right. It would have been better had your partner played the ball anyway for a winner, just to remove all doubt. JMHO.

dcdoorknob 05-17-2010 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4662258)
It works differently when there are roving officials. If a roving official sees you make a bad line call that you don't correct (so they have to correct you), it's loss of point.

I know this because I once played a tournament where my opponent called my shot on her baseline long on match point. The roving official happened to be right there, overruled her, and awarded me the point and the match.


Why would it be different when an official overuled the player and when a player overrules himself? In both cases the player made an errant call that stopped play when it should have continued. For me the player that made the call is at fault, no one or nothing else, and they should forfeit the point.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse