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-   -   Are You Sure My Self-Rate Is Safe? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=335513)

Cindysphinx 06-27-2010 01:47 PM

Are You Sure My Self-Rate Is Safe?
 
I have a self-rated player on my 3.5 team. She travels a lot and so was unavailable the entire season.

Until Friday. When she and her (strong) partner steamrolled another team 6-2, 6-1.

And until today, when she and that same partner double-bageled another 3.5 team.

Now, I have learned from you good people that double-bagels do not count toward your rating.

Is the same true for double-bagels by self-rated players?

I don't plan to do anything differently regarding this self-rated player -- if she gets DQ'd, she gets DQ'd.

But I'd sleep better knowing how this works!

JavierLW 06-27-2010 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4809974)
Now, I have learned from you good people that double-bagels do not count toward your rating.

I dont know how you "LEARN" something that nobody knows.

If you're self rated and you clobber some established players 6-0, 6-0, you can be sure that may warrent you a strike depending on how it averages in with everything else.

Ive seen players get DQ'ed in as little as 3 matches with the first one being a double bagel.

Cindysphinx 06-27-2010 06:22 PM

Because somebody quoted something official that said my double-bagel results this season won't help my rating. Is that the same thing as not counting as a strike? Or is it something else entirely?

JavierLW 06-27-2010 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4810552)
Because somebody quoted something official that said my double-bagel results this season won't help my rating. Is that the same thing as not counting as a strike? Or is it something else entirely?

They dont tell anyone that sort of information.

And if someone did then they should be removed because they are not supposed too.....

It's common sense, if your player double bagels an established player, do you really think that they are just going to ignore that result and not count it against your player???

What if you double bageled everyone you played at 3.5? You get to stay 3.5??!!!

That's why it's not likely they would of just thrown those results out. (unless they seriously have a screw loose)

tom10s 06-27-2010 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4809974)
I have a self-rated player on my 3.5 team. She travels a lot and so was unavailable the entire season.

Until Friday. When she and her (strong) partner steamrolled another team 6-2, 6-1.

And until today, when she and that same partner double-bageled another 3.5 team.

Now, I have learned from you good people that double-bagels do not count toward your rating.

Is the same true for double-bagels by self-rated players?

I don't plan to do anything differently regarding this self-rated player -- if she gets DQ'd, she gets DQ'd.

But I'd sleep better knowing how this works!


6-0 6-0 wins will not generate a strike but will raise dntrp well into strike range so that the next match played will almost certainly generate a strike. unless her opponents are low dntrp 3.5's she probably has 1 strike and will get 2nd strike as soon as you enter her next match results(assuming not another 0-0). i'll wager she'll get dq'ed within 48hrs of you entering her 4th match results.

SweetH2O 06-27-2010 07:27 PM

I would say that double bagels might not affect an established player's dynamic rating because the computer doesn't know how to quantify how much better one player is from another. But double bagels should count as strikes. But I'm just guessing along with most people on here.

kylebarendrick 06-27-2010 09:07 PM

My understanding was that the scores were only thrown out if the EXPECTED outcome of the match was a double bagel, such as a 4.5 playing a 3.0. Since the 4.5 could not possibly win by enough of a margin to maintain their rating (they'd have to win by more than a double bagel), the scores are meaningless.

Otherwise I can't imagine why a 6-0, 6-0 win against C rated players would not be used in the dynamic calculation. It is a perfectly valid score.

Cindysphinx 06-28-2010 04:14 AM

Ah, OK. I found it.

This was posted by dizzlmcwizzl on another thread:

Quote:

From the Middle States web site ... but similiar verbage is posted on the Southern and other district web sites. I assume it is a national thing as I would not think the ratings formula could be different by region.


What data is not used to calculate year-end ratings?
• Combo Doubles
• Non USTA Leagues/Fun Leagues/Flex Leagues
• NTRP Tournaments
• Non-Sanctioned Tournaments
• 6-0, 6-0 match results

From a mathematics perspective I think a pure equation would have a hard time dealing with a 6-0, 6-0 score .... much like trying to divide by zero. You would think they could just program in that a score of 0-0 must be considered the same as 6-0, 6-1 or something like that ... but I think in practice the reason they do not consider the double bagel is because there is no frame of reference as to how much better or worse you are than the opponent. You could have a double bagel if A 5.0 was playing a 2.5, 3.5, or a 4.5 and without winnig at least a game it is hard mathematically to distinguish a difference.

So I guess the double bagel won't help her get bumped to 4.0 for year end rating purposes, but she could conceivably get DQ'd/bumped now? Interesting . . . .

Cindysphinx 06-28-2010 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JavierLW (Post 4810592)
What if you double bageled everyone you played at 3.5? You get to stay 3.5??!!!

Yes, I think so. In fact, I have two double-bagels in 3.5 doubles this season, and I was under the impression that they won't push me to 4.0. If you remove those results, I think the computer will keep me at 3.5.

HitItHarder 06-28-2010 04:47 AM

In our captain's meeting at the beginning of the year, Southern was sending around one of the national level officers who personally deals with NTRP ratings, hears national rating appeals, etc. The reason he was at our meeting was he was giving a NTRP presentation because of the big bump up. I understand this was done through out our state.

During that presentation we were specifically told by this USTA guy that 6-0, 6-0 scores were not used to generate dynamic NTRP ratings. He said that a 6-0, 6-0 score doesn't give them anything to measure as far as how good the player giving the bagel really was on that day.

Not saying that I agree with this, but that is the USTA position and how we were told the NTRP works.

Islandtennis 06-28-2010 05:10 AM

Cindy,

Javier may blast me again, but this comes directly from a member of the National Oversight Group late last year. The double bagels will not affect their dynamic rating but will affect their year end rating. So, DQ no; bump up, maybe.

My opinion is that the way 0,0 scores are treated may have been changed slightly over the past few years, but that is opinion only.

The above is my impression on how they are interpreted this year.

dizzlmcwizzl 06-28-2010 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JavierLW (Post 4810592)
\
It's common sense, if your player double bagels an established player, do you really think that they are just going to ignore that result and not count it against your player???

What if you double bageled everyone you played at 3.5? You get to stay 3.5??!!!

That's why it's not likely they would of just thrown those results out. (unless they seriously have a screw loose)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4811345)
Yes, I think so. In fact, I have two double-bagels in 3.5 doubles this season, and I was under the impression that they won't push me to 4.0. If you remove those results, I think the computer will keep me at 3.5.

I have no other information than what the web site says ... and the formula certainly may have changed.

As far as the perpetual 3.5 thing concerned, who knows if this could actually happen. However I think the player would go into a second year still as a self rate and subject to penalties such as disqualification. We had at least one example of a poster on here recently that was frustrated because he was a self rate, played other self rates or bageled opponents and started the next season as a self rate.

dizzlmcwizzl 06-28-2010 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4811339)
Ah, OK. I found it.

This was posted by dizzlmcwizzl on another thread:



So I guess the double bagel won't help her get bumped to 4.0 for year end rating purposes, but she could conceivably get DQ'd/bumped now? Interesting . . . .

However, I just googled the info from the previous thread and while it shows up on google as having once existed, when you click on the link ... the page is no longer found. hmmmmmmmmm

Limpinhitter 06-28-2010 06:09 PM

I don't understand the mentality of wanting to play opponents below your level. What satisfaction is there in beating players you know you can beat? The fun is beating players you didn't know you can beat!

kendall22 06-28-2010 07:32 PM

This isn't just an individual game. You are a helping a team which may consist of many friends make playoffs also.

Cindysphinx 06-28-2010 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter (Post 4813942)
I don't understand the mentality of wanting to play opponents below your level. What satisfaction is there in beating players you know you can beat? The fun is beating players you didn't know you can beat!

I think she self-rated properly. I gave her a very strong partner (according to the computer) who plays a lot of 4.0. We'll see how it goes in the playoffs . . . .

Limpinhitter 06-29-2010 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4814217)
I think she self-rated properly. I gave her a very strong partner (according to the computer) who plays a lot of 4.0. We'll see how it goes in the playoffs . . . .

I should have expressly stated my premise which is that, from my observation, there is an epidemic of self under-rating, at least around here. When you've got former highly ranked juniors and Div. 4A college players playing 4.5, something ain't right.

Kostas 06-29-2010 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 4814217)
I think she self-rated properly. I gave her a very strong partner (according to the computer) who plays a lot of 4.0. We'll see how it goes in the playoffs . . . .

I highly doubt that...the mere fact that you're worried about her getting DQ'd says to me that you feel she did NOT fact properly, as very, very few self-rates do.

In my spare time I'm slowly putting together the spring/adult league win %'s of the self-rated players versus the computer rated players in this area and I'm going to forward it to our state and section to highlight the gross ineffectiveness of the self-rate program.

In fact, I don't think I've hardly ever met anyone that self-rated ABOVE 2.5 that wasn't underrated by at least half a level.

Cindysphinx 06-29-2010 09:09 AM

If she didn't self-rate properly, she will be DQ'd. Neither she nor I are going to do anything to try to manipulate anything. We'll let the chips fall where they may.

Me, I think she's a strong 3.5.

Limpinhitter 06-29-2010 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kostas (Post 4815876)
I highly doubt that...the mere fact that you're worried about her getting DQ'd says to me that you feel she did NOT fact properly, as very, very few self-rates do. . . .

How do "self-rates" rate themselves improperly? Why?


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