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-   -   Machine brand differences (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=358351)

mctennis 11-25-2010 01:49 PM

Machine brand differences
 
I have a question as to the different brands of stringing machines. I use to use a stringer for about 15 years. He used a Babolat 3 or 4 Star machine. From what I remember seeing a couple of times. I use to just mostly drop them off to him at his home. On occasion I'd be in his stringing room so that's why I can't remember the exact machine. He retired because of early Alzheimers disease. He moved out of the area into a smaller one story house so I really can't call him to ask him what machine he truly had.
Long story but why I ask this is I can't find a stringer that makes my racquet feel like he did after restringing it. I've tried about 5-6 stringers and they all have different machines. Each time I use the same racquets, same strings same tensions and string set ups. Each time the racquet never feels as good as when my old stinger did them. I've wasted so much string and so much money not being happy with the way the racquet feels and plays. Now I've had to start messing around with the tensions to try and get the same feel and playability.
Would the machine he used and the different machine brands others use make that big of a difference?
Thanks for your input.

Technatic 11-25-2010 09:28 PM

Different stringers, different result
 
Hi Mctennis,

The difference in playability of your stringbed can come from the difference in machine or condition of it.
The machine can only offer as little loss of tension as possible.
I think that it is important to compare the end result.

Important to know is, what difference in playability do you feel:
- More or less power.
- Shorter or longer ball-contact.

If you tried a number of stringers with the same result, it could be that something on the Old stringer's machine was not as it should be resulting in a lower result.
If his clamps have been slipping his result will be lower.

Does your stringbed feel stiffer or softer?

rufusbgood 11-25-2010 10:16 PM

First off, racquet stringing is done by people, not machines. A stringing machine is a tool used by a racquet stringer to string a racquet. In your case, your old stringer appears to have been an accomplished technician. Chances are, even if you could get your hands on his old machine, the work it would produce would feel different to you with a new operator.

That said, different mounting systems and tensioning mechanisms do affect the output of a machine. If you have been getting your racquets strung on a Star 4 and then you switch to a stringer using a Neos 1000 you are going to feel a huge difference for a variety of reasons:

1. The Star 4 is a constant pull machine and the Neos is a lockout machine. The Star 4 will therefore produce work 5-10% tighter even if the machines are both calibrated perfectly.

2. The Star 4 has a six point mounting system and the Neos has a 2 pt mounting system. In my experience the 2 pt mount produces a stiffer string bed.

3. The Star 4 has diamond dusted clamps which do a superb job of preventing tension loss during stringing. Can make a huge difference especially with coreless multifilament strings like Xcel.

So, yes, machine brands make a difference and machine types make a difference. Still the single most influential variable you can change is the person doing the work.

mctennis 11-28-2010 06:15 PM

Thanks for the replies. The trouble I'm having with the racquet when I had it restrung is that it feels "dead". I normally have it strung at 60 lbs. I usually use a full gut string bed or a gut mains/ TiMO crosses. It had it done at several places and it feels dead. So I went with less tension and I was sailing the balls into the back of the other side o the court with no control ( around 55 lbs tension). I went back up to 58 bs and I was sailing the balls long again and the net was a joke also. Sailing them all over the place. I just went back up to 60 lbs last week (from yet another pro shop) and I will play next weekend. I just can't figure out what to do to compensate for the lack of feel with my racquets. I had such great touch and soft hands at the net before and now it feels like I'm hitting with a 2x4.

rufusbgood 11-28-2010 07:13 PM

Well, the approach you are taking to resolve this seems sensible to me. You've tried lowering your tension. I would have expected that to work too. So, I have 2 questions for you:

1. Is the newest stringer using a machine like your old stringer used?
2. What racquet is this that you are stringing at 60 lbs?

LttlElvis 11-28-2010 08:12 PM

Each time you were changing the tensions, were you using the same person on the same machine to string it, or did you change tensions with a different person and different machine? Keeping with one person and telling him/her what you are experiencing can make a big difference.

Might be a mental thing too. It happens to anyone. I got some prestrung racquets from TW, and mentally I thought they wouldn't be as good as the racquets I strung. I hated them at first. I didn't want to waste it and just cut them out, so I played with them until they broke. As I got used to them, I liked it.

If you feel like you are spending too much money, you may consider stringing on your own.

Technatic 11-28-2010 09:28 PM

Stringbed stiffness is the major matter!
 
I agree with the other guys, if you change tensions and stringers there are too many factors that may vary.

The difference in feeling does not come from the difference in tension on the machine but in the difference in final string bed stiffness.

If you were happy with 60 lbs before and unhappy with 58 and 55 now the difference in SBS can not be in relation to the difference in tensions. These stringers must have lost more tension that your old guy.

My advise is to find a player, shop or stringer who has a stringbed tester and find out what your stiffness is.

If you want control you need to be at 37 DT (kg/cm) or higher.

MuscleWeave 11-29-2010 03:40 AM

Did your first stringer use power pads on your strings? They are very small foam discs that you put under the strings, on the outside of the hoop. They also save the string from early breakage where the string goes through the frame at a sharp angle. When used properly, they widen up the sweetspot a bit and give you more feel for the ball.

klu375 11-29-2010 07:30 PM

You may want to use this free tool to get objective results:
http://marc.roettig.org/tennis/freqmess.php
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=28657
Works on a PC with any cheap external mike. Should save you from going nuts. By the way, is there a chance that your racket developed micro cracks and strings have nothing to do with the playability? Do you have more than one similar racket?

pstar 11-30-2010 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Technatic (Post 5224162)
If you want control you need to be at 37 DT (kg/cm) or higher.

I have a gamma ats ert 300 for measuring stringbed stiffness. But even if I string my racquets as high as 27 kg in the mains, the DT still shows 35 kg/cm at the most! Usually I string with Cyber blue mains and Cyber flash crosses.

One time I strung two similar racquets in a row, both at 27 kg mains and 26 kg crosses. But the computer showed DT 35 for the first and DT 32 for the other?

I like to think that I`m pretty consistent in my stringing and are using a Stringway ML100 at the moment. Do you have any idea of what I`m doing wrong?

mctennis 11-30-2010 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuscleWeave (Post 5224699)
Did your first stringer use power pads on your strings? They are very small foam discs that you put under the strings, on the outside of the hoop. They also save the string from early breakage where the string goes through the frame at a sharp angle. When used properly, they widen up the sweetspot a bit and give you more feel for the ball.

Yes, my old stringer used power pads. I asked the new stringers about them and they stated they could not get them. I have NO idea why not. They are just little pieces of leather. That just may be what the problem is.

mctennis 11-30-2010 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klu375 (Post 5226752)
You may want to use this free tool to get objective results:
http://marc.roettig.org/tennis/freqmess.php
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=28657
Works on a PC with any cheap external mike. Should save you from going nuts. By the way, is there a chance that your racket developed micro cracks and strings have nothing to do with the playability? Do you have more than one similar racket?

I thought of the cracks also. I have one brand new racquet I pulled out to have strung along with one of my other used ones. I just had them both restrung last week. I'm playing Friday and I'll see how they feel and if there is any difference in the way they play. That's when the stringer told me he couldn't get power pads to use on them. HUH?????

mctennis 11-30-2010 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Technatic (Post 5224162)
I agree with the other guys, if you change tensions and stringers there are too many factors that may vary.

The difference in feeling does not come from the difference in tension on the machine but in the difference in final string bed stiffness.

If you were happy with 60 lbs before and unhappy with 58 and 55 now the difference in SBS can not be in relation to the difference in tensions. These stringers must have lost more tension that your old guy.

My advise is to find a player, shop or stringer who has a stringbed tester and find out what your stiffness is.

If you want control you need to be at 37 DT (kg/cm) or higher.

I'll do this. Great idea and suggestion.
The place uses Master stringers so I'm not sure why they would be different between the racquets if they are using the same tension and also using the same three stringing machines.

mctennis 11-30-2010 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LttlElvis (Post 5224019)
Each time you were changing the tensions, were you using the same person on the same machine to string it, or did you change tensions with a different person and different machine? Keeping with one person and telling him/her what you are experiencing can make a big difference.

Might be a mental thing too. It happens to anyone. I got some prestrung racquets from TW, and mentally I thought they wouldn't be as good as the racquets I strung. I hated them at first. I didn't want to waste it and just cut them out, so I played with them until they broke. As I got used to them, I liked it.

If you feel like you are spending too much money, you may consider stringing on your own.

You know that may help if just the same stringer is doing it. I know they have Master racquet stringers at this place. I figured that would help. I almost feel like sending them to Roman in NYC to see if he can string them correctly AND have power pads.

mctennis 11-30-2010 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rufusbgood (Post 5223896)
Well, the approach you are taking to resolve this seems sensible to me. You've tried lowering your tension. I would have expected that to work too. So, I have 2 questions for you:

1. Is the newest stringer using a machine like your old stringer used?
2. What racquet is this that you are stringing at 60 lbs?

No, the stringing machine is not like the older stringer had. He used a Babolat 3 or 4 star one.
I am stringing Volkl C10 Pro Tours at 60 lbs.

rufusbgood 11-30-2010 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mctennis (Post 5228623)
No, the stringing machine is not like the older stringer had. He used a Babolat 3 or 4 star one.
I am stringing Volkl C10 Pro Tours at 60 lbs.

If you are having C10 Pro Tours strung with a gut/poly hybrid at 60 lbs on a constant pull machine I would expect them to feel like boards. I can't imagine why reducing tension to 55 lbs failed. Something isn't right.

GPB 12-01-2010 05:59 AM

It sounds like your new stringer is being lazy about the power pads... Anybody can make their own, if they care.

rufusbgood 12-01-2010 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pstar (Post 5227380)
I have a gamma ats ert 300 for measuring stringbed stiffness. But even if I string my racquets as high as 27 kg in the mains, the DT still shows 35 kg/cm at the most! Usually I string with Cyber blue mains and Cyber flash crosses.

One time I strung two similar racquets in a row, both at 27 kg mains and 26 kg crosses. But the computer showed DT 35 for the first and DT 32 for the other?

I like to think that I`m pretty consistent in my stringing and are using a Stringway ML100 at the moment. Do you have any idea of what I`m doing wrong?

I'm very disappointed in you Technatic. As the Stringway rep I thought you'd be all over this post like white on rice.

First off Pstar, I have an earlier unit than you, the ERT700, so our results may differ. With a full bed of poly I get plenty good control with a DT of 34. So there's that.

Second. I can get a whole range of readings from the ERT just by shifting it around a little bit. Assuming you are always locating on the same two crosses, how you position it between the mains can and will affect the readings. For instance, if you are able to squeeze the legs of the probe in so that 2LM and 2RM are hugging the legs of the probe, you will get a lower reading. If you shift one leg to the outside of 2LM you can get a different reading and if you shift one leg to the outside of 2RM you may find you get yet another reading. So, the ERT is a useful tool but not without it's limitations and idiosyncrasies. Again, I have an older model so maybe our experiences will be different. That's my take on it though.

Without knowing what racquet it is you are stringing it's hard to know whether you are way off the mark or not but if things are on the low side of normal the usual suspect is slipping clamps. Clean them with alcohol and check for slippage. If the string is not slipping through the clamp and the clamp is not slipping on the glide bar and the tensioner is pulling accurately and you are clamping as close to the frame as you can, all systems are go and you should be fine.

mctennis 12-02-2010 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPB (Post 5230127)
It sounds like your new stringer is being lazy about the power pads... Anybody can make their own, if they care.

I thought the same thing. I even asked about that. Thy said " we just use to buy them but can't get them any longer."
Sounded like bs to me too.

mctennis 12-02-2010 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rufusbgood (Post 5228701)
If you are having C10 Pro Tours strung with a gut/poly hybrid at 60 lbs on a constant pull machine I would expect them to feel like boards. I can't imagine why reducing tension to 55 lbs failed. Something isn't right.

Is the Babolat 3 or 4 Star a constant pull machine?


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