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-   -   Increase tension on last pull? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=372352)

anthonyjf 03-15-2011 05:15 AM

Increase tension on last pull?
 
Does anyone increase tension on the last pull before tying off? If so, how much do you increase, and are there any pros / cons?

Carolina Racquet 03-15-2011 05:35 AM

I used to, but now that I do a better job in cinching my knots, it's not necessary IMO.

In cinching the knot, the key is pulling the knot AWAY from the frame as you tighten, then before it's fully tightened, pull hard TOWARDS the frame. A little tip I've used is putting my thumb on the tighten string on the outside of the frame where it enters the grommet. I find it helps to hold the string's tension a little better before the final cinch.

rich s 03-15-2011 06:02 AM

It's not necessary to increase the tension on the last string (or the first cross).....

the last string is short and is inherantly more stiff than any string longer than it, so even if it loses tension during the process of tying the knot it will still have enough stiffness to not matter.... additionally since we normally don't hit the ball on the last mains/crosses or first cross it is not a factor in playability of the stringbed.

tlm 03-15-2011 06:29 AM

I was taught to increase the tension on the last 2 pulls to compensate for tension loss at tie off.

Technatic 03-15-2011 06:42 AM

I always raise the tension in 2 or 3 strings before the knot depending of the kind of string.
The less elasticity in a string the more difficult it is to maintain the tension on your knot.
My electronic machine has a special "knot button" which raises the set tension by 10%.

anthonyjf 03-15-2011 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rich s (Post 5488198)
It's not necessary to increase the tension on the last string (or the first cross).....

the last string is short and is inherantly more stiff than any string longer than it, so even if it loses tension during the process of tying the knot it will still have enough stiffness to not matter.... additionally since we normally don't hit the ball on the last mains/crosses or first cross it is not a factor in playability of the stringbed.

Thanks all for the feedback. Both answers helped me. I should have clarified my initial question: When I said last pull, I meant ANY tie off (mains/starting cross tie/ last cross tie). I have been increasing tension by 1 pound on tie offs because of a youtube video I watched that said tension is lost during tie offs, but since I am confident in my cinching, I think I am going to keep tension the same.

anthonyjf 03-15-2011 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Technatic (Post 5488274)
I always raise the tension in 2 or 3 strings before the knot depending of the kind of string.
The less elasticity in a string the more difficult it is to maintain the tension on your knot.
My electronic machine has a special "knot button" which raises the set tension by 10%.

10%...That seems like a lot. On a 60# string job, that would be a 6# increase on tie offs making tie off setting 66#. I guess your "knot button" knows what it is doing. I couldn't find that button on my crank machine...

PimpMyGame 03-15-2011 07:26 AM

I tried doing it, any benefits (and I'm not sure there were any) were outweighed by having to remember to decrease the tension again. But maybe that's just me...

dgdawg 03-15-2011 07:35 AM

I do it. 2 out of the 5 machines I've owned have a knot button.
I had a 2086 for a while and it bugged me that it didn't have a knot button.
I, personally, think it makes a difference.
On my Star 5, hitting the shift button on a pull increases the tension 5lbs.

sstchur 03-15-2011 08:42 AM

I don't do it. The reason I don't do it though is for consistency. It seems there is a general consensus that whatever methods you use in your stringing, you ought to keep them the same every time.

If I increase the tension on tie-offs, I will inevitably forgot to reset the tension after I've tied off. I've done this multiple times. I've finally settled on simply not messing with the tension (with the only exception being if I'm doing a different tension for mains and crosses) at all when I string. For me, that helps achieve better consistency b/c it is one less thing I have to remember.

dgdawg 03-15-2011 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstchur (Post 5488550)
I don't do it. The reason I don't do it though is for consistency. It seems there is a general consensus that whatever methods you use in your stringing, you ought to keep them the same every time.

If I increase the tension on tie-offs, I will inevitably forgot to reset the tension after I've tied off. I've done this multiple times. I've finally settled on simply not messing with the tension (with the only exception being if I'm doing a different tension for mains and crosses) at all when I string. For me, that helps achieve better consistency b/c it is one less thing I have to remember.

ha ha....roger that.
When I had my 2680, I would dial in 10% more (less @ higher tension) for the knot pull and sometimes space on moving it back.
I quite often used M2 for knots. That seemed to be more "idiot proof"

mikeler 03-15-2011 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstchur (Post 5488550)
I don't do it. The reason I don't do it though is for consistency. It seems there is a general consensus that whatever methods you use in your stringing, you ought to keep them the same every time.

If I increase the tension on tie-offs, I will inevitably forgot to reset the tension after I've tied off. I've done this multiple times. I've finally settled on simply not messing with the tension (with the only exception being if I'm doing a different tension for mains and crosses) at all when I string. For me, that helps achieve better consistency b/c it is one less thing I have to remember.


I would even forget to change the tension on hybrids half the time so I just leave the tension alone.

jim e 03-15-2011 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sstchur (Post 5488550)
I don't do it. The reason I don't do it though is for consistency. It seems there is a general consensus that whatever methods you use in your stringing, you ought to keep them the same every time.

I agree with you that you should be consistant on what you do.

This is a highly controversal issue for sure, has been for a while and still is. Many can argue both ways, best advise is to pick one way and stick with it for consistancy.

A person from the USRSA emailed me a while back and said it is not necessary to increase according to the USRSA, but then said that is does no harm to increase the tie offs, so it seems like they are staying neutral on this issue, most likely due to the % of tour stringers and slam stringers that increase the tie offs.
Many tour stringers increase the tie offs.Also many slam stringers increase their tie offs as well.Examples are: Tim Strawn from GSS a member of the Wilson String team increases his tie offs a great deal , was somewhere around 5kg increase . Richard Parnell said a while back that he increases the tie offs as that is why the manuf. place that knot button there. The knot button increases the last pull by 10% once the buttton is hit, and only the pull after that button is pressed, so there is nothing to forget..That is what I do, and have stayed that way as well, for consistancy.I tie a good cinched up knot, but the knot also does loose some with relaxing of the tie off knot. By doing this it also keeps the end main strings straighter due to the offset weave of the adjacent main string.I have increased the tie offs way back in the 1960's when I first started to string, as many players pull on the end main strings and judge your job by this, irregardless of what you explain to them that the end main will be easier to move because of the way the strings are weaved they still pull on those.Many players will not pull on those end mains in front of you , but when they get home or later they inevitably do. By increasing the tie offs this makes the strings tight, no complaints of loose end mains, the end mains stay straighter, and you don't hit with the end mains anyways, so it really does not matter one way or another.

Like I said it is controversal, no one way is correct at this point in history, so just stay consistant on what you do.

Irvin 03-15-2011 10:14 AM

I don't do it. Think of it this way, if you needed to how much would you need to increase the tension for Prince Syn Gut compared to Gamma Infinity or would they be the same. Would you increase the tension more tying off the mains than you would for the crosses because there is less drawback? Would you increase the tension more for flying clamps than for fixed clamps?

Only those stringers that are thinking too much even think about such a ridiculous notion. LOL Bet that is going to get some hate mail. LOL

Let me ask the OP a quesiton. If you do it does it make a difference? If you don't know why does it matter? My mistake two questions.

Irvin

jim e 03-15-2011 12:59 PM

Irvin:
I'm sure that it makes no difference, but to many clients that pull on that end main it does, even though it is explained to them why the end strings move more, many still pull on the end strings, I even had clients pull on the end mains where I used an ATW where the tie offs were on cross strings! .
The amount of tension loss from the knot drawback is a small amount , as every knot, no matter how well it is cinched will have some tension loss,irregardless of the type of string, (I was taught the now called parnell knot back in 1968, and that knot cinches up nice, but there is still some loss), also being the end main that no one hits with, so after I hit the knot button that increases the tension by the 10%, when the strings are plucked the end mains sound just as they should. No harm done, clients happy, I keep it consistant ,so all I say is to each their own on this.

As you well know there is no set ruling on this, very controversal to say the least as each side has reasons for and against, so this is an individule preference at this point in time until a final ruling is definitively made.

Even the Slam stringers disagree on this issue as some are strong for, as well as some strong against, so do you feel that we are going to make a difference one way or another on these forums or all of us agree on this issue? I would think not. Thats life!


Since the OP asked for pros and cons:

My reasons for:
It keeps the end mains straight do to the off set weave of the adjacent main, (most compelling reason) .

Many clients pull on the end mains to judge your job on this, even if it is explained to them that is is normal for it to be that way due to the offset weave of the adjacent main.

Since there is some loss with the knot drawback, the 10% makes up the difference, within reason, if it is slightly over, no harm, as said no one hits with the end mains anyways.

The manuf. of the high end machines put that knot button there for a reason. (this was from one of R. Parnells statement a few years back on another forum that had this controversy, as he increases his tie offs when he strings) .

Many tour stringers and Slam stringers increase the tie offs, although this is probably the least reason why, as many do not as well.

Reasons against:
You do not hit with the end main, so no reason to increase.

The end main, or cross tie off are short strings that deflect less than a longer string, so the shorter string should be less tension anyways, (but if this was actually true, then why is proportional stringing not very popular, as this follows that thinking) .

The USRSA states that it is not necessary to increase the tie off's. (they also said it does no harm if you do)

People with no knot button forget to set the machine back.

Decide for yourself, as no correct answer here, as this horse has been beatened to death many times in the past!

dgdawg 03-15-2011 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irvin (Post 5488782)
I don't do it. Think of it this way, if you needed to how much would you need to increase the tension for Prince Syn Gut compared to Gamma Infinity or would they be the same. Would you increase the tension more tying off the mains than you would for the crosses because there is less drawback? Would you increase the tension more for flying clamps than for fixed clamps?

Only those stringers that are thinking too much even think about such a ridiculous notion. LOL Bet that is going to get some hate mail. LOL

Let me ask the OP a quesiton. If you do it does it make a difference? If you don't know why does it matter? My mistake two questions.

Irvin

....I think this comment speaks for itself....there is absolutely nothing more to be said than that.
ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a joke
incidentally, question is spelled question

mucat 03-15-2011 10:28 PM

Whatever you do, consistency is the key.

Irvin 03-16-2011 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgdawg (Post 5489289)
....I think this comment speaks for itself....there is absolutely nothing more to be said than that.
ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't think of a reason no to.
What a joke
incidentally, question is spelled question

Yes my comment was a joke but I would not increase tension on the tie off strings.

I have seen the comment about pulling on the outside mains being an excuse for increased tension on the outside mains. Well don't tie off the outside mains by using a box or ATW pattern and you will still have the same problem. Increase tension on the outside mains 25% and you will still have the same problem.

Some people think knots slip. Well mine don't. If your knots slip maybe you need a better knot or technique. 'YULitle' has a good video on tightening knots.

Most tennis string stretches and some much more or less than others. When the string stretches as it is tensioned, it will try to recover but it never recovers all the way immediately. If the string is held stretched out sooner or later it will lose its elasticity and never return to its original state. When a string is tied off and the clamps are released you are going to have some drawback. That drawback is mainly caused by the full tension on one side of the clamp and the slack section of string between the knot and the clamp. There is also the issue of the knot and grommets but I am going to assume those are non-issues for right now and concentrate on the slack string.

Cinching up your knot correctly by pulling the knot down the anchor string and back up to the frame will remove much of the slack. Shortening the distance between the clamp and the tie off will minimize the slack. And clamping your tie off string on a stiffer string bed will keep the clamped string from drawing back as much.

To cinch up your knot go to 'YULitle's' video.

Shortening the distance between the clamp and the tie off point sounds like it could be hard to do but it is not. Look at this video at the US Open and how they tie off the mains and crosses. When the stringer completes the 18th cross he skips to the bottom cross and comes back up to string the 19th cross. When the stringer ties off at 12T this makes the string between the clamp and the knot shorter by the distance from bottom to 19th cross grommet. When I string rackets one piece (and there are skipped grommets) I like to use the short side to run the top cross or two. This also makes the distance shorter because the tie off is usually above the skipped grommet(s) holes. Also on my machine I can get the clamps closer to the frame on a cross than I can on the outside mains. Now look at how the stringer ties off the top cross. All the crosses are in before he comes back to tie off that cross. Because all the crosses are in the string bed is stiffer and there is less drawback on the clamp. The mains help to hold the clamp from drawing back on a stiffer string bed. The stringer pulls tension again to release the starting clamp, stretching that string again. All of this helps to reduce the drawback when the clamp is released.

I could be wrong but it looks like when he ties off the mains he hits the knot button and pulls tension (I assume up 10%,) releases tension, reverts back to the original tension, and pulls again before tying off the knots. I like this better than increasing tension on the last main because you are keeping you tension constant but removing the elasticity from the string before tying it off. For those that use the Wise tension head you do have a knot button. It is called “Pre-Stretch.” You can use this button to pull your tension on the outside mains then turn it off, release tension and tension again.

The reason I don’t increase tension on the tie off strings is because it promotes inconsistency. How can one determine how much tension will be lost on the tie off string when the elasticity of all strings is different and almost every frame will have a different distance from the clamp to the tie off point? I prefer to eliminate the drawback.

Irvin

Rabbit 03-16-2011 05:17 AM

The only issue I've ever had with with mains. On a one-piece, I always make sure that I string at least one cross and then tie off on that. Seems like a cross holds tension better due to friction I guess.

On a hybrid where that is not possible, I don't increase tension either. I agree with the others that practice makes perfect and learning to cinch a knot is key.

Irvin 03-16-2011 05:23 AM

'Rabbit' one thing you could do is to use the JayCee (JC? not sure) method of tying off the mains. He skips the next to last main on each side with a loop over and then strings the next to last main last. This will usually make the tie off closer to the clamp. Some times the next to last main is the tie off so it will not work on that main. If you have flying clamps it may be a problem too because of the distance between the mains with a skipped main.

Irvin


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