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-   -   Another Instance Of Officiating Error? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=399381)

Cindysphinx 10-03-2011 06:54 AM

Another Instance Of Officiating Error?
 
This tale comes from an episode at Districts. I didn't see it, but a spectator told me about it.

Player A hit a lob that was sailing well out. As soon as she hit it, she made a sound expressing frustration ("Aaaack!").

Opponent Player B did not catch the ball, and it bounced well outside the court. Player B did not play the ball. Player B did not make an audible or visual out call.

The official monitoring that court awarded the point to Player A. The explanation given was that the Code requires players to make an audible or visual out call.

That ruling cannot possibly be right, can it? I don't think all Code violations are automatic loss of point. Shouldn't the official warn Player B to make audible calls, and then only if it seems to be contributing to a problem of some sort?

kylebarendrick 10-03-2011 07:52 AM

Sounds like an extreme application of "if you don't call it out, then it is in". That's one reason why I always at least do a quick "out" hand signal no matter how far out the ball is.

If I was player A in this situation, I'd have probably donated the next point.

NoQuarter 10-03-2011 07:55 AM

Wow...that's a tough one....but Player B should have made a call. I can't say that it should have been a point penalty....but Player B probably won't make that mistake again. I have been going over this with my Wife and her team mates all year (this is their first year in league). I'll be playing with them and they will hit one over the fence and I will make the Out call....they say something like "Thanks Captain Obvious"....then I have to explain to them that if I did not make that call, then it is their point.

Cindysphinx 10-03-2011 08:29 AM

But the Code doesn't say if you fail to make a call the point goes to the opponent. It could say that, but it doesn't.

I'd hate to see roving officials start to impose point penalties for everything they see that isn't strictly according to the Code.

I mean, if the server fails to announce the score before serving, is that also loss of point?

Nellie 10-03-2011 08:38 AM

I think that is a terrible call - the ITF rule 24 say that a player loses the point when the ball lands out. There is no ambiguity. The Code (which operate under the rules) paragraph 15 says you are "entitled" to an prompt audible/visible call, but the paragraph 13 of the Code also, mentions that opponents "should" call their own shots out when obvious.

Douggo 10-03-2011 08:39 AM

I'd guess the prevailing logic here is not that the point is awarded to player A for player B's lack of call. Rather, for the failure of player B to return a shot that was assumed in by virtue of having not been called out.

andfor 10-03-2011 08:47 AM

Imo This is not a judgement call and should be appealed to the Tournament Referee for a ruling.

JLyon?

Maui19 10-03-2011 09:03 AM

Wow. I often don't call or signal an opponents ball that is clearly out (like several feet long/wide, or blasted into the fence). I feel like that is rubbing it in. However maybe I should make a hand signal regardless of how ridiculously out a ball is.

I also think Cindy asks a good question about officials awarding a point for code violations where the rules don't specify a penalty.

Douggo 10-03-2011 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maui19 (Post 6042566)
Wow. I often don't call or signal an opponents ball that is clearly out (like several feet long/wide, or blasted into the fence). I feel like that is rubbing it in. However maybe I should make a hand signal regardless of how ridiculously out a ball is.

I also think Cindy asks a good question about officials awarding a point for code violations where the rules don't specify a penalty.

See my post above. I think if you don't call the ball out, then it's in. So you lose the point when the ball has bounced twice. Not a penalty.

That said, I'm like everybody else. If it's way out, I assume my opponent has seen it out, and I don't call it.

Oh, and player A, in the spirit of getting the call right, should not have accepted the point. I would assume that's part of the Code.

NoQuarter 10-03-2011 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maui19 (Post 6042566)
Wow. I often don't call or signal an opponents ball that is clearly out (like several feet long/wide, or blasted into the fence). I feel like that is rubbing it in. However maybe I should make a hand signal regardless of how ridiculously out a ball is.

I also think Cindy asks a good question about officials awarding a point for code violations where the rules don't specify a penalty.

I feel the same way...about rubbing it in (see my earlier post about comments I receive). But if you don't then you run into people that will say, "I am entitled to a call".

rjw 10-03-2011 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylebarendrick (Post 6042432)
Sounds like an extreme application of "if you don't call it out, then it is in". That's one reason why I always at least do a quick "out" hand signal no matter how far out the ball is.

If I was player A in this situation, I'd have probably donated the next point.

I'm with you on this....I would have donated the next point. Hopefully it didn't happen at a crucial part of a match.

Rui 10-03-2011 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maui19 (Post 6042566)
Wow. I often don't call or signal an opponents ball that is clearly out (like several feet long/wide, or blasted into the fence). I feel like that is rubbing it in. However maybe I should make a hand signal regardless of how ridiculously out a ball is.

I also think Cindy asks a good question about officials awarding a point for code violations where the rules don't specify a penalty.

The way I operate is: if it's close, I call it. If it's obvious, I use "the finger." Sometimes both. Works for me.

JLyon 10-03-2011 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andfor (Post 6042532)
Imo This is not a judgement call and should be appealed to the Tournament Referee for a ruling.

JLyon?

To be honest I am calling a little BS on this story or it is exaggerated since it is coming as a second hand story.
There has to be more to the story, such as did the opponent protest the call, a roving official unless called to court should not be making rulings unless there is a clear mistake such as a clear line-call mistake.

If the ball was obviously out the only thing an official should do is remind the players to make and audible call or a universal hand signal to clarify that the ball was out.

Just can not see a certified official making this type of call, but I would call for the tournament referee and ask about the ruling, there is no dispute on fact I assume that both players agreed the ball was out and the player did not make an audible call, but come on this is league tennis you sound more like an ***** if you call an obvious out ball out, it is not juniors.

JLyon 10-03-2011 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douggo (Post 6042581)
See my post above. I think if you don't call the ball out, then it's in. So you lose the point when the ball has bounced twice. Not a penalty.

That said, I'm like everybody else. If it's way out, I assume my opponent has seen it out, and I don't call it.

Oh, and player A, in the spirit of getting the call right, should not have accepted the point. I would assume that's part of the Code.

It is actually against the rules to not accept the penalty or point from the official.

spot 10-03-2011 10:00 AM

Quote:

It is actually against the rules to not accept the penalty or point from the official.
It would be far more fun to curse out the official to get a point penalty to even things out.

rjw 10-03-2011 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spot (Post 6042666)
It would be far more fun to curse out the official to get a point penalty to even things out.

Interesting solution!!

jswinf 10-03-2011 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douggo (Post 6042514)
I'd guess the prevailing logic here is not that the point is awarded to player A for player B's lack of call. Rather, for the failure of player A to return a shot that was assumed in by virtue of having not been called out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douggo (Post 6042581)
See my post above. I think if you don't call the ball out, then it's in. So you lose the point when the ball has bounced twice. Not a penalty.

The thing about your post above is that I'm pretty sure you meant "the failure of player B to return a shot..." This stuff is confusing enough.

Douggo 10-03-2011 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jswinf (Post 6042722)
The thing about your post above is that I'm pretty sure you meant "the failure of player B to return a shot..." This stuff is confusing enough.

You're right. I'll fix it. Thanks.

Cindysphinx 10-03-2011 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoQuarter (Post 6042590)
I feel the same way...about rubbing it in (see my earlier post about comments I receive). But if you don't then you run into people that will say, "I am entitled to a call".

Right. They're "entitled to a call." That doesn't mean they are entitled to a point.

I mean, unless the umpire said, "Player B, what is your call?" and Player B refused to make one, I can't think of an argument for loss of point.

Coach Carter 10-03-2011 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kylebarendrick (Post 6042432)
Sounds like an extreme application of "if you don't call it out, then it is in". That's one reason why I always at least do a quick "out" hand signal no matter how far out the ball is.

If I was player A in this situation, I'd have probably donated the next point.

if I had been player B...you mispelled it...I would have detonated on the next point. I would have exploded...


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