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Lionheart392 03-23-2012 05:52 AM

The Graf/Hingis rivalry
 
I find this an interesting rivalry. Steffi leads 7-2, but they had some close matches, most notably the 1999 French Open final. However, it seems that Hingis never really got her head around Graf's game. Hingis has dominant records over people like Seles and Sanchez Vicario; she didn't have a problem with most of the older generation. And although many talk about her being powered out of the women's game, she is still a combined 17-17 against the Williams sisters.
So what was it about Graf that gave her only 2 victories in 9 matches?

kiki 03-23-2012 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lionheart392 (Post 6416515)
I find this an interesting rivalry. Steffi leads 7-2, but they had some close matches, most notably the 1999 French Open final. However, it seems that Hingis never really got her head around Graf's game. Hingis has dominant records over people like Seles and Sanchez Vicario; she didn't have a problem with most of the older generation. And although many talk about her being powered out of the women's game, she is still a combined 17-17 against the Williams sisters.
So what was it about Graf that gave her only 2 victories in 9 matches?

Interesting.Hingis was a very clever player, with sound techniche who changed spins,paces,angles...but nothing seemed to disturb Steffi.I always thought that, to beat Steffi, you had to overpower her, just as Seles did on clay during her prime, and Martina Navratilova did when she was dominating Graf.

Hingis game could beat and match everybody but, for some reason, she never found the clue to beat the german.

BTURNER 03-23-2012 06:48 PM

Graf played a game totally unlike most other women. One obvious difference was that one-handed slice, that stayed low to Hingis backhand and gave Graf better reach wide to her left. She was also a better all court mover than just about anyone else Hingis played. Hingis played positional tennis and depended on manuvering her opponent into awkward situations and off balance to induce errors or bad choices. It was virtually impossible to keep Steffi out of position long enough to gain benefit while that slice always made Martina hit up on her twohander. Let's face it Steffi was a perfect anecdote to the entire double-handed revolution in women's tennis. Virtually all other one handers (Navratilova, Novatna, Sukova) followed it to the net for target practice. Steffi did not give a target and gave nothing easy to tee off on in cross court exchanges. Ask yourself how many women with double-handers had a winning record vs Graf?

Roy125 03-23-2012 07:56 PM

Hingis relied on controlling the middle of the court and outmaneuvering her opponents. Graf, with her speed, was able to keep up with Hingis's shots.

1970CRBase 03-23-2012 08:36 PM

The same thing that Hingis used to destroy Monica, her variety and shotmaking, is the same thing Graf could kill with her movement and her own power. Still, all their last five matches went the distance including the notorious 5 setter at 96 Chase.

btw Hingis and Graf are playing an exo in Taipei in May. Back in the day Cheeky Hingis was one of the very few players Graf really disliked. Are the cool with each other now? Hingis will be looking to get back at Graf over that 99 RG fiasco that she still can't get over even today, though I maintain it was the 2 AO's that she lost against Capriati that were worse.

bluetrain4 03-23-2012 10:13 PM

I love talking matchups. Aranxta Sanchez Vicario played a somewhat Hingis-esque game of variety, getting a lot of balls back, using opponents pace, coming into net, etc., and, while her record vs. Graf was basically the same as Hingis', but 4 times as many matches (8-28 vs. 2-7), the fact is she beat Graf 8 times, and many times gave her trouble while losing. Why was that? What was particular about the matchup that enabled ASV to give Graf so much trouble at times?

Then consider that Seles was more dominant against ASV (20-3) than Graf was but was pretty bad against Hingis (5-15). Of course part of that was that a lot of those Hingis matches didn't involve a prime Seles (the weight gain had started), but still, the matchup was simply bad. That's why when Seles finally beat Hingis in a big match (something like 6-3, 6-2 in the 1998 French Semis), I was so disappointed that she randomly lost to ASV in the final (while winning the middle set 6-0). It was totally rare loss to ASV and was probably her best chance for another Slam.

I

kiki 03-24-2012 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTURNER (Post 6418290)
Graf played a game totally unlike most other women. One obvious difference was that one-handed slice, that stayed low to Hingis backhand and gave Graf better reach wide to her left. She was also a better all court mover than just about anyone else Hingis played. Hingis played positional tennis and depended on manuvering her opponent into awkward situations and off balance to induce errors or bad choices. It was virtually impossible to keep Steffi out of position long enough to gain benefit while that slice always made Martina hit up on her twohander. Let's face it Steffi was a perfect anecdote to the entire double-handed revolution in women's tennis. Virtually all other one handers (Navratilova, Novatna, Sukova) followed it to the net for target practice. Steffi did not give a target and gave nothing easy to tee off on in cross court exchanges. Ask yourself how many women with double-handers had a winning record vs Graf?

I was looking at the 1999 FO final and I couldn´t stop thinking how hypocrital graf´s enhancers and Hingis haters are.

Graf ahd the best FH all time - men or women- and the best moves - also both or women- but she was just as much a ***** as Evert,King,Williams, to name a few.

Hingis was arrogant and made a mistake, yes.But she was right, and the line was clearly not the one marked.It seemed that the referees were pushed by the french awful crowd.Hingis would have won it easily and humilliate Graf if not for that ( she also made the mistake not to let it go when she was dominating but SHE WAS UTTERLY RIGHT)

Graf could ahve, at least, signaled the mark or round it.Instead, she was laughing big time, just as the big ***** she was.

Hingis was a geniune champion, always smiling, her game was so unique, inteligent, chess-like.Graf was just a great athlete.

Hingis was so hot and cute, she brought a fresh air that has been lost forever.Graf always looked like she had to go to the dentist...

kiki 03-24-2012 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1970CRBase (Post 6418466)
The same thing that Hingis used to destroy Monica, her variety and shotmaking, is the same thing Graf could kill with her movement and her own power. Still, all their last five matches went the distance including the notorious 5 setter at 96 Chase.

btw Hingis and Graf are playing an exo in Taipei in May. Back in the day Cheeky Hingis was one of the very few players Graf really disliked. Are the cool with each other now? Hingis will be looking to get back at Graf over that 99 RG fiasco that she still can't get over even today, though I maintain it was the 2 AO's that she lost against Capriati that were worse.

gRAF WILL ALWAYS HAVE TO ENDURE 2 SHAMES:

One not caused by her: Seles Stabbing

The other caused by her: the shameful and unsportsmanlike way she won her last slam because ****ing french crowds ( who were crazy about that guy mauresmo) and ball-less umpires decided so.

I feel bad for Graf: a great champěon GOING OUT IN THE MOST SHAMEFUL AND DISGRACEFUL WAY EVERˇˇˇˇ

Honestly, compared to that, coke´s small trouble for Hingis pales in comaprison.

Lionheart392 03-24-2012 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 6418757)
gRAF WILL ALWAYS HAVE TO ENDURE 2 SHAMES:

One not caused by her: Seles Stabbing

The other caused by her: the shameful and unsportsmanlike way she won her last slam because ****ing french crowds ( who were crazy about that guy mauresmo) and ball-less umpires decided so.

I feel bad for Graf: a great champěon GOING OUT IN THE MOST SHAMEFUL AND DISGRACEFUL WAY EVERˇˇˇˇ

Honestly, compared to that, coke´s small trouble for Hingis pales in comaprison.

Erm, have you been drinking?
Graf was not in charge of the French crowd, she could not control the way they acted that day. But for the record, I think the crowd gave Hingis exactly what she deserved; you reap what you sow. And blaming Graf for the umpire? Where is the logic in that?
Finally, referring to Mauresmo as 'that guy' is unnecessary. Try to have a debate without resorting to that kind of talk.

dannykl 03-24-2012 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluetrain4 (Post 6418590)

Then consider that Seles was more dominant against ASV (20-3) than Graf was but was pretty bad against Hingis (5-15). Of course part of that was that a lot of those Hingis matches didn't involve a prime Seles (the weight gain had started), but still, the matchup was simply bad. That's why when Seles finally beat Hingis in a big match (something like 6-3, 6-2 in the 1998 French Semis), I was so disappointed that she randomly lost to ASV in the final (while winning the middle set 6-0). It was totally rare loss to ASV and was probably her best chance for another Slam.

I

Why Hingis gave Monica so much troubles while ASV was dominated by Monica?
Is there something special Hingis has but ASV doesn't?
I feel Hingis is more clever in constructing points than ASV. So Hingis uses her viarieties better than ASV. ASV also has varieties, but doesn't combine them and mix them up as well as Hingis, especially against Seles.

Although Graf leads her head-to-head against Seles, Hingis seems to be a even bigger threat to Seles. Can Steffi learn something from Hingis when facing Seles? Maybe Graf can use her varieties more, come to the net more?

boredone3456 03-24-2012 01:10 PM

First of all..the head to head is like 7-2 in Grafs favor...not much of a rivalry really as Graf won pretty much all their matches.

As for the matchup...well its been said. Martina played lime a chessmaster and always tried to look 3 or 4 shots ahead. She tried to blueprint everything out in advance and against Graf there was no blueprint because there was almost no tactical weakpoint to bait her to. Hingis couldn't deal very well with a shot by shot match and reactive play...she wanted to be in total control and when you did not let her she was very beatable as proven by Graf then later Davenport and the Williams sisters.

As for personalities...Hingis was no sweetheart. She had a big mouth and was not all that respectful of her opponents. She ditched Jana as a doubles partner for being to old, then she slammed her one time doubles partner Kournikova in singles when asked about their budding rivalry saying "I win all the matches". She also said of Graf something like "her time is over now" big words seeing as she usually lost to Steffi. Not to mention likening Mauresmo to a man before the 1999 Aussie finals. You may say things about Grafs personality if you like...Hingis was no peach

But to coin Hingis herself here...
What rivalry...Graf won most of the matches...

And yes I know age and all that is a factor...but I could not resist

kiki 03-24-2012 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lionheart392 (Post 6418807)
Erm, have you been drinking?
Graf was not in charge of the French crowd, she could not control the way they acted that day. But for the record, I think the crowd gave Hingis exactly what she deserved; you reap what you sow. And blaming Graf for the umpire? Where is the logic in that?
Finally, referring to Mauresmo as 'that guy' is unnecessary. Try to have a debate without resorting to that kind of talk.

If Hingis, who shared the locker room said so, you and me must go abide.

kiki 03-24-2012 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannykl (Post 6419103)
Why Hingis gave Monica so much troubles while ASV was dominated by Monica?
Is there something special Hingis has but ASV doesn't?
I feel Hingis is more clever in constructing points than ASV. So Hingis uses her viarieties better than ASV. ASV also has varieties, but doesn't combine them and mix them up as well as Hingis, especially against Seles.

Although Graf leads her head-to-head against Seles, Hingis seems to be a even bigger threat to Seles. Can Steffi learn something from Hingis when facing Seles? Maybe Graf can use her varieties more, come to the net more?

No, Graf had more power but not 1/5 of Martina´s shotmaking...Seles was morre worried facing that shotmaking and privileged mind than Graf´s raw power and speed.

kiki 03-24-2012 02:50 PM

In Graf vs Hingis rivalry, claerly the beast beat the beauty...even , and specially in the beauty´s homeland.It was the story reversed

tennis_pro 03-24-2012 03:02 PM

I think the h2h is a bit misleading (sorta like Henin-Venus Williams), out of 8 matches as many as 6 were contested in 1995-1996 when Graf was still winning 3/4 majors a year while Hingis was barely 15-16 years old at the time.

Graf was injured for most of 1997-1998 which were Hingis' best years.

Technically, the h2h in 1997-1999 should stand at 2-2 as Graf gave a walkowever in the 97' Tokyo final, the other 3 matches were 3-setters, in one of them Graf had to come back from the dead to barely squeak out a win - the 99 FO final that is.

dannykl 03-24-2012 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis_pro (Post 6419825)
I think the h2h is a bit misleading (sorta like Henin-Venus Williams), out of 8 matches as many as 6 were contested in 1995-1996 when Graf was still winning 3/4 majors a year while Hingis was barely 15-16 years old at the time.

Graf was injured for most of 1997-1998 which were Hingis' best years.

Technically, the h2h in 1997-1999 should stand at 2-2 as Graf gave a walkowever in the 97' Tokyo final, the other 3 matches were 3-setters, in one of them Graf had to come back from the dead to barely squeak out a win - the 99 FO final that is.

97-99 is Hingis prime years while Graf was already way past her prime and was plagued by injuries and surgery recovery. Still a seriously declining Graf has a 2-1 lead against Hingis in her very prime. Graf did dominate Hingis on court.

While Hingis enjoys lots of success against players in Graf's generation(Seles, Jana, ASV, Pierce..), she has little answers to Graf's game.

Lionheart392 03-24-2012 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis_pro (Post 6419825)
I think the h2h is a bit misleading (sorta like Henin-Venus Williams), out of 8 matches as many as 6 were contested in 1995-1996 when Graf was still winning 3/4 majors a year while Hingis was barely 15-16 years old at the time.

Graf was injured for most of 1997-1998 which were Hingis' best years.

Technically, the h2h in 1997-1999 should stand at 2-2 as Graf gave a walkowever in the 97' Tokyo final, the other 3 matches were 3-setters, in one of them Graf had to come back from the dead to barely squeak out a win - the 99 FO final that is.

The match wasn't played, so it can't count towards the head to head.
And yes, Graf had to make a comeback in the 1999 French final. But in 1998 Graf fed Hingis a third set bagel, and at Tokyo 1999 even though Graf lost, I believe she had the lead in the final set. Hingis never really came close to conquering her.

1970CRBase 03-25-2012 05:36 AM

I don't know how anybody can find a way to blame Graf for what happened at RG 99. Simple terms, Hingis was extremely high strung that match, once she lost her cool and started arguing with the ump, Graf couldn't get a word in edgewise even if she wanted.

Warriorroger 03-25-2012 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1970CRBase (Post 6421038)
I don't know how anybody can find a way to blame Graf for what happened at RG 99. Simple terms, Hingis was extremely high strung that match, once she lost her cool and started arguing with the ump, Graf couldn't get a word in edgewise even if she wanted.

Exactly. BTW for the posters who are so dead sure the point was in. I am not sure which camera angle or close ups were broadcast in your country, but IMO you could not see from the replay we have seen, if the ball were in and out. Graf was not laughing about the call, she was she was laughing in disbelief that someone would make such a fuss about one call, while she was already a leading a set and 2 love.

As for the match up. Underestimate a player like Graf and it will backfire.

PowerPlay 03-25-2012 08:27 PM

Hingis was a master...her game is missed on the current "hit it as hard a show can" WTA tour.


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