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-   -   What happened when Connors rubbed out that ball mark against Barrazutti ? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=424281)

MAXXply 05-16-2012 04:52 AM

What happened when Connors rubbed out that ball mark against Barrazutti ?
 
Can tennis fans with long memories recall:

What happened in the immediate aftermath of the point where Jimbo walked over to Corrado Barrazutti's side of the court and rubbed out the ball mark?? (at least I think it was Barrazutti)
Which tournament was it?
Was the point replayed or given to Jimbo or Barazutti?
How did Barrazutti and the crowd react?
What was the post-match reaction from local press and authorities?

Michael B 05-16-2012 05:18 AM

The umpire publicly criticized him but didn't award a warning or point to Barrazzutti, at least as I recall. Connors won the match.

Pebbles10 05-16-2012 07:46 AM

Something Wilander would never had done!

Arafel 05-16-2012 08:15 AM

It was in the semifinals at the 1977 U.S. Open. The umpire was laughing as he warned Connors, and the crowd seemed to be chuckling. Jimbo still won the point. Barazzutti was angry but couldn't really do anything.

Moose Malloy 05-16-2012 09:11 AM

I have a ton of claycourt matches from the 70s & 80s & it was extremely rare for any linesman or umpire to check a mark when a player asked. Even in the '91 French Open final the umpire refused to check the mark when Courier asked(& I think that was the only time he asked in the entire match)

Its one of those things(players getting umpires to check marks) that gradually became very common so many fans today assume that it was always that way.

I think there was a 0% chance that Barazutti would have gotten the elderly umpire in the chair that day (or anyone, it seemed to be more common for linesman to check marks at one point not umpires) to check that mark so the 'travesty' of what Connors did has been exagerated a bit over the years, esp in the context of his reputation.

And if you watch the clip on youtube Connors did it in a joking way(he runs in a silly sort of way across the net)

I'm sure Connors was also well aware that there was a 0% chance of anyone checking the mark or overturning the call(this is what would have happened had Connors not done that:
Barazutti: "look, the mark"
Umpire: loudly, in the patronizing way so many of the old farts that ruled tennis back then sounded, "the call was good, play on."
Barazutti: "But.."
Umpire: "PLAY ON!"
Barazutti would then play on.

And someone referenced the Wilander match...notice that the umpire refused to check the mark there as well? Yeah it was great sportsmanship in the context of the game back then, but that situation could never happen today, since the umpire would have been out of his chair before Clerc even raised an eyebrow to check the mark.

athiker 05-16-2012 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 6538788)
I have a ton of claycourt matches from the 70s & 80s & it was extremely rare for any linesman or umpire to check a mark when a player asked. Even in the '91 French Open final the umpire refused to check the mark when Courier asked(& I think that was the only time he asked in the entire match)

Its one of those things(players getting umpires to check marks) that gradually became very common so many fans today assume that it was always that way.

I think there was a 0% chance that Barazutti would have gotten the elderly umpire in the chair that day (or anyone, it seemed to be more common for linesman to check marks at one point not umpires) to check that mark so the 'travesty' of what Connors did has been exagerated a bit over the years, esp in the context of his reputation.

And if you watch the clip on youtube Connors did it in a joking way(he runs in a silly sort of way across the net)

I'm sure Connors was also well aware that there was a 0% chance of anyone checking the mark or overturning the call(this is what would have happened had Connors not done that:
Barazutti: "look, the mark"
Umpire: loudly, in the patronizing way so many of the old farts that ruled tennis back then sounded, "the call was good, play on."
Barazutti: "But.."
Umpire: "PLAY ON!"
Barazutti would then play on.

And someone referenced the Wilander match...notice that the umpire refused to check the mark there as well? Yeah it was great sportsmanship in the context of the game back then, but that situation could never happen today, since the umpire would have been out of his chair before Clerc even raised an eyebrow to check the mark.

Interesting info...thanks. It does give it a different context.

kiki 05-16-2012 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAXXply (Post 6538217)
Can tennis fans with long memories recall:

What happened in the immediate aftermath of the point where Jimbo walked over to Corrado Barrazutti's side of the court and rubbed out the ball mark?? (at least I think it was Barrazutti)
Which tournament was it?
Was the point replayed or given to Jimbo or Barazutti?
How did Barrazutti and the crowd react?
What was the post-match reaction from local press and authorities?

USO semis in 77.The crowd reaction: next day, in the finals, Vilas was playing in Buenos Aires, not in New York...

FedericRoma83 05-17-2012 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 6539531)
USO semis in 77.The crowd reaction: next day, in the finals, Vilas was playing in Buenos Aires, not in New York...

Ahahah, nice joke Kiki, I appreciated this. :D

(I also appreciated Vilas winning the match against the arrogant yankee).

kiki 05-17-2012 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FedericRoma83 (Post 6543210)
Ahahah, nice joke Kiki, I appreciated this. :D

(I also appreciated Vilas winning the match against the arrogant yankee).

It was like if New York had become crazy for Vilas, but this was due to Connors behaviour.Jimmy´s love story with NY crowd had to wait till Mc Enroe showed up and Flushing replaced Forest Hills ( which, of course, was a much much classier venue than the Meadows.Then Connors was the nice brash and John the bad brash...crowds are so manipulable...

Benhur 05-18-2012 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 6538788)
I have a ton of claycourt matches from the 70s & 80s & it was extremely rare for any linesman or umpire to check a mark when a player asked. Even in the '91 French Open final the umpire refused to check the mark when Courier asked(& I think that was the only time he asked in the entire match)

Its one of those things(players getting umpires to check marks) that gradually became very common so many fans today assume that it was always that way.

I think there was a 0% chance that Barazutti would have gotten the elderly umpire in the chair that day (or anyone, it seemed to be more common for linesman to check marks at one point not umpires) to check that mark so the 'travesty' of what Connors did has been exagerated a bit over the years, esp in the context of his reputation.

And if you watch the clip on youtube Connors did it in a joking way(he runs in a silly sort of way across the net)

I'm sure Connors was also well aware that there was a 0% chance of anyone checking the mark or overturning the call(this is what would have happened had Connors not done that:
Barazutti: "look, the mark"
Umpire: loudly, in the patronizing way so many of the old farts that ruled tennis back then sounded, "the call was good, play on."
Barazutti: "But.."
Umpire: "PLAY ON!"
Barazutti would then play on.

And someone referenced the Wilander match...notice that the umpire refused to check the mark there as well? Yeah it was great sportsmanship in the context of the game back then, but that situation could never happen today, since the umpire would have been out of his chair before Clerc even raised an eyebrow to check the mark.

There is no need to work so hard as to write little scripts attempting to sugarcoat Connor's behavior.

Checking marks was not as common as today, but you are being clumsily disingenuous to suggest it was nearly unheard of, or to suggest that what Connors did was not totally disgusting, simply because he walked in a "silly sort of way". Big deal. Are there any other big match examples of a player going over to their opponents side (which you are not even allowed to do in the middle of a game) to erase a mark the opponent is pointing at, before the umpire even makes a decision whether to check it or not? The behavior is most of all a big insult to his opponent, and he got away with it simply because he was Connors. It would be interesting to see how he would have reacted if his opponent had done that to him. Stop defending the indefensible with silly scripts about what the umpire may have said, please.

Connors was a great tennis player, among the top 5 in the open era in my opinion. He was also one of the most mean-spirited boorish jerks the sport has ever seen among its greats. The two things are not incompatible. Agassi does a good portrait of Connors at some point in his book.

gavna 05-18-2012 07:18 AM

I was a ballboy and was there - I didn't work that match but saw it in person, crowd was huge for Connors and really was no big reaction - it did happen fast and Jimbo did a quick "duck walk" and ran back - most folks kinda laughed. Corrado was not a fan fav anyway and had this hangdog attitude so the fans took it as Jimbo being Jimbo.

But for the finals (which I did work) it was totally different as Vilas was having such a huge year and was sooooo cool Jimbo just didn't have them in his pocket that night. There was a HUGE group of like 1000 from Argentina in the stands - its like every Argentinian steakhouse closed for the night and every staff member was in attendance.....the majority of the older Westside members who were very stiff upper middle class Forest Hills folks rooted for Vilas as well....it's was the younger Americans 17 - 40 who were the only ones really pulling for Connors.

Also BS that marks were not checked at the time - I played and worked at numerous events at Westside in the 70s from Jr events, WCT events and the US Open and on the Har Tru the marks got checked on a regular basis.

Benhur 05-18-2012 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavna (Post 6545047)

Also BS that marks were not checked at the time - I played and worked at numerous events at Westside in the 70s from Jr events, WCT events and the US Open and on the Har Tru the marks got checked on a regular basis.

Checking marks on clay is as old as claycourt tennis, and that's very old. The fact that umpires sometimes refused to check them in the past if they felt the call was correct doesn’t do anything to improve the ugliness of what Connors did. The umpire had not even made any decision whether to check the mark or not. The fundmental truth about the a-s-s--h-o-le-ness of Jimmy Connors is easily ascertained by thousands of web pages where people call him all kinds of variations of ugly names. A well known quote by Arthur Ashe may be one of the most complimentary. When asked if he believed Connors was an as****, Ashe thought for a moment and then replied: “Yeah, but he was my favorite as****.

That’s an acceptable form of perfume. Moose's perfume is not.

Moose Malloy 05-18-2012 11:06 AM

Quote:

Also BS that marks were not checked at the time - I played and worked at numerous events at Westside in the 70s from Jr events, WCT events and the US Open and on the Har Tru the marks got checked on a regular basis.
hmm, that's interesting. I have probably 50 clay matches on dvd tape from the 70s/80s(granted most are from the French), I've seen maybe a handful of times where an official checked a mark (they didn't even do it for Noah in the '83 French Final!)

I have these matches at Forest Hills on tape, not one checked mark I believe in any these matches (And I'm sure you remember the very odd match point in the Vilas-Connors final. Connors hits a fh that is apparently called good, Vilas looks at linesman & I guess he reverses his call, then Vilas has a delayed celebration. No checked mark, umpire says nothing, match over. have trouble imagining that happen today)

'75 USO F Connors-Orantes
'75 USO F Evert-Goolagong
'76 USO F Borg-Connors
'77 USO F Vilas-Connors
'77 USO Higueras-Rosewall
maybe have more, will have to check my list.

And I mentioned that famous Clerc-Wilander match point(see below)
did you see it? why did the umpire refuse to check the mark on such an important point(and it was right in front of him)
he even got out of his chair to leave the court because the match was over, but refused to walk a few steps to look at that mark. Everyone still goes on about Wilander's great sportsmanship that day, but in a way I think he was forced to do that because of the arrogant umpire(crowd was going nuts, it was an awkward situation)

Again, there is no way that situation could happen today.

Quote:

Checking marks was not as common as today, but you are being clumsily disingenuous to suggest it was nearly unheard of, or to suggest that what Connors did was not totally disgusting, simply because he walked in a "silly sort of way". Big deal. Are there any other big match examples of a player going over to their opponents side (which you are not even allowed to do in the middle of a game) to erase a mark the opponent is pointing at, before the umpire even makes a decision whether to check it or not? The behavior is most of all a big insult to his opponent, and he got away with it simply because he was Connors. It would be interesting to see how he would have reacted if his opponent had done that to him. Stop defending the indefensible with silly scripts about what the umpire may have said, please.

Obviously I don't expect tennis fans to have a photographic memory of how the game was in the past (nor do I, but I think it would be obvious to you by now that I watch A LOT of old matches - not just what's on youtube. I watch far more old matches than current matches in fact. Do you really think I'm just speaking out of my *** & trying to sugarcoat Connors or something? I don't think it was cool what he did, but I am sure nothing would have changed had he not. as is often the case, I think the way we view tennis today makes it hard to have perspective on the past. your post is sort of weird, when so often I'm the one who frequently answers your questions about the past. And I did cite specific examples. And could probably do many more, can you find me one example of a mark being checked in a 70s claycourt match? or better yet a mark being checked & then overrturned? it seems like officials back then thought they were always right)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2n9P...ure=plpp_video

really, this is clip is beyond absurd. guy gets down out of chair to talk to Clerc, but won't check the mark. yeah I'm being disingenuous to suggest the way claycourt matches were officiated in the past was not really similar to the way they are today.

I think it would be a bit disingenuous to not acknowledge how different the game is today from the not too distant past. And I'm not talking about styles of play, etc, but officiating & other stuff we have gotten so used to.

Again, I watch a lot of old matches & it was shocking to me how umpires were so adamant about not checking marks not too long ago, even when players maybe questioned only once or twice a match. It clearly was some sort of party line that umpires were adhering to. And a lot of these matches I did watch live way back when & probably didn't think it was such a big deal at the time. But watching them all these years later, after watching umpires today get out of the chair 10-20 times a match(often before a player even looks at them), it does seem rather jarring & pretty unfair for players of the past.

And I could go on & on about so many details from the past that seem so strange today. I'm sure you've noticed players toweling off all the time in between points today? Rosewall did it once in a match at the USO I have (in a far quicker fashion than players today) & the commentators said, "he'd better not do that again, or he could get a warning"

Or umpires in the 80s warning players that stopped to grab a drink or towel off while switching sides in a tiebreak(surely you remember there was time where players weren't allowed to do this? play is supposed to be continuous in a tiebreak, funny how getting water & toweling off during a tiebreak today is now the norm)

Or Roche in the '70 USO Final(I mentioned this is one of your multiple "why did they play with a ball in their hands" threads)
Commentators talked of how unusual it was to to keep a ball in your pocket while serving. But they said it was ok because "he gets the 2nd ball out of his pocket very quickly."

Or the instances I've seen where balls fell out of pockets during points but lets were not called(there is a famous one with Goolagong-King at the USO)
Or Chris Evert just tapping the 2nd ball behind her after making a 1st serve because she had no pockets(recreational players wouldn't be allowed to do that in league tournaments today)

Or trash blowing on courts in matches and no lets being called. Or hats falling off players & lets not being called.

Or elderly umpires frequently getting the score wrong in matches.

Or players spraining their ankles & getting warned by the umpire for not playing immediately(no folks, there wasn't always something called an injury timeout. or sympathetic umpires who used good judgement)

Or umpires saying, 'lets just play a let' after players give them a look after a questionable call. Even if said call was a clean winner, 'let's just play a let.' the game was pro, but the officiating was clearly amateur for a long time. you do know that most tournaments just used local umpires & linesman in the 70s? for many years ATP only had a few touring umpires & that only became common in 80s. But Wimbledon still only had their own umpires for many years(as late as 1989, I think no ATP umpire still had ever worked Wimbledon) And fans think players argued a lot back then due to gamesmanship. Right. Somehow I doubt the frazzled 70 year old British guy in the chair during the '78 Wimbledon final had to pass a test that atp umpires today have to. There was a reason the game took so long to go Open, & a lot of it was due to a lot of stubborn old men of the country club ilk. Same stubborn old men ran the slams once game went open & many were still in the chair at the slams for years after. was probably hard to get out of the chair to check marks in their advanced age.

Quote:

Stop defending the indefensible with silly scripts about what the umpire may have said, please.
sad thing is, I've seen this script happen so many times in old matches. And not just with the 'bad boys.' can still hear those umpires saying, "call was good, play on!" in patronizing tones the second a player gave them a quizical look. it was soo common in 70s/80s.

A recent one I saw was Sukova-Navratilova '84 AO. what a ***** in the chair. couldn't say a peep to her without being snapped at. and of course, she got the score wrong a few times. good times.

Quote:

Are there any other big match examples of a player going over to their opponents side (which you are not even allowed to do in the middle of a game)
I'm sure the specific examples will come to me later, but I have seen players do this in old matches(cross the net to point at a mark & argue)

Weird that Mac said Hingis could get defaulted when she crossed the net at '99 French, I wonder if it is an actual rule or just an unwritten rule. And maybe that rule didn't exist in the 70s(since so many rules I posted upthread apparently didn't exist either)

Quote:

Agassi does a good portrait of Connors at some point in his book
Agassi's portrait of himself is even more absurd. Yeah, Andre you caught Jaite's serve in that Davis Cup match because you couldn't get out of the way of the ball!
I can't think of a many more disgusting acts in tennis than someone destroying another player, then 'catching' his serve in order to give him a point out of pity, can you? Don't recall Jimmy ever doing that.

I think that was the most absurd explanation for bad oncourt behavior I've ever seen. Esp since it was written so many years later. is old Andre so full of himself that he can't acknowledge he was a fool when he was 19? I remember when it happened, everyone in tennis, even his DC teammates, blasted him for that stunt.

But today the word of Saint Andre is gospel, must accept everything in his book as the truth.

At least Jimmy hasn't written a sob story(yet) where every asshat thing he ever did was really just about us 'misunderstanding' him.

krosero 05-18-2012 06:39 PM

Connors apparently rubbed out a mark at the '84 French, against McEnroe: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...6404%2C3150979

The video doesn't show him doing that, but you can see the two players confronting each other at the net: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...NNQFnno#t=428s

In his loss to Wilander the previous year, Mac had tried unsuccessfully to get the umpire to check a mark. Again in '88 he couldn't get the umpire to check a mark, when he lost to Lendl.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 6545644)
Weird that Mac said Hingis could get defaulted when she crossed the net at '99 French, I wonder if it is an actual rule or just an unwritten rule. And maybe that rule didn't exist in the 70s(since so many rules I posted upthread apparently didn't exist either)

Maybe you remember, Lendl crossed over to Wilander's side of the net to point out a mark, at the '82 French. The umpire just told him he had 15 seconds to serve.

woodrow1029 05-18-2012 07:10 PM

Moose, McEnroe was partially correct. Crossing the net to look at a ball mark is a code violation, but not a default.

As to those arguing wit moose about the old time umpires checking ball mars, moose is correct.

Back then, if the player wanted a mark checked, he had to ask the line umpire. A lot of the old school linesmen didn't want to be shown as wrong, so they would only look at a mark if they knew they would be right.

If the player argued with the linesman, and the linesman was unsure, the only way a chair umpire could go look is if the linesman yielded to the chair.

Then it evolved to where the chair could go after the linesman if they were fairly certain the linesman went to the wrong mark.

Then thankfully it evolved to the way it is today.

gavna 05-19-2012 03:36 AM

That's very true arguing over WHICH mark was very common.....I also remember a few times when a player felt a linesman was repeatedly making bad calls or made a really bad one would go to the linesman and ask them to rotate to another spot. I saw this for the first time i ballboyed in 74 when (I can't exactly remember who) during a changeover asked the lineman to switch as he was more concerned with his calls than the match. On the next changeover that linesman did it before the regular rotation.

Benhur 05-19-2012 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodrow1029 (Post 6546806)
Moose, McEnroe was partially correct. Crossing the net to look at a ball mark is a code violation, but not a default.

As to those arguing wit moose about the old time umpires checking ball mars, moose is correct.

Back then, if the player wanted a mark checked, he had to ask the line umpire. A lot of the old school linesmen didn't want to be shown as wrong, so they would only look at a mark if they knew they would be right.

If the player argued with the linesman, and the linesman was unsure, the only way a chair umpire could go look is if the linesman yielded to the chair.

Then it evolved to where the chair could go after the linesman if they were fairly certain the linesman went to the wrong mark.

Then thankfully it evolved to the way it is today.


Meaning that balls were sometimes checked. Barazzutti says that, if memory serves him well, it would have meant a point to go up 5-3 in the third set. Says he saw the ball clearly out. Turned around to talk to the linesman to come see the mark, and right away, while he had his back toward the net, Connors ran over to his side and erased the mark. http://www.repubblica.it/2009/05/rub...i-connors.html

Connors later claimed he didn’t remember doing any such thing, according to an article in SI in 1978.

“[…] the bluster and forced antics culminating in the mortifying episode at Forest Hills last year when Connors ran around the net onto the other side of the court and erased a ball mark that his opponent, Corrado Barazzutti, was citing as evidence of a bad call. (Connors says now that he blacked out on his feet and doesn't recall the incident.)”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...27/4/index.htm

It’s astonishing to me that such behavior went unpunished and is considered "funny". And it seems even more amazing (not less) in the context of the fact that umpires back then were supposed to be stricter and quicker than today to give warnings even for small things like toweling off. But when it came to the Connors antics (and later McEnroe’s) they just let them get away with incredible tantrums and abuse. Isn’t that odd? I mean, isn’t that really odd? Strictness for the small sins, but systematic leniency for the outrageous ones. Toweling off is awful, but “you’re an abortion” or running to erase marks on the other side of the net is okay. It took more than a decade of tantrums for Mac to be defaulted in Australia. And it took until 1986 for Connors to be defaulted for “aggravated behavior” in Boca Raton. Ah, but toweling off was a serious crime. How does that explain or excuse the fact that Connors was allowed to do such things? It doesn’t. To me, the Barazzutti episode is by far the most disgusting thing I've ever seen done by a big player on a tennis court, worse than the abortion episode, worse than Mac's smashing glasses, worse than any tantrum by anyone. No wonder Connors says he forgot all about it.

BeHappy 05-19-2012 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benhur (Post 6547342)
Meaning that balls were sometimes checked. Barazzutti says that, if memory serves him well, it would have meant a point to go up 5-3 in the third set. Says he saw the ball clearly out. Turned around to talk to the linesman to come see the mark, and right away, while he had his back toward the net, Connors ran over to his side and erased the mark. http://www.repubblica.it/2009/05/rub...i-connors.html

Connors later claimed he didn’t remember doing any such thing, according to an article in SI in 1978.

“[…] the bluster and forced antics culminating in the mortifying episode at Forest Hills last year when Connors ran around the net onto the other side of the court and erased a ball mark that his opponent, Corrado Barazzutti, was citing as evidence of a bad call. (Connors says now that he blacked out on his feet and doesn't recall the incident.)”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...27/4/index.htm

It’s astonishing to me that such behavior went unpunished and is considered "funny". And it seems even more amazing (not less) in the context of the fact that umpires back then were supposed to be stricter and quicker than today to give warnings even for small things like toweling off. But when it came to the Connors antics (and later McEnroe’s) they just let them get away with incredible tantrums and abuse. Isn’t that odd? I mean, isn’t that really odd? Strictness for the small sins, but systematic leniency for the outrageous ones. Toweling off is awful, but “you’re an abortion” or running to erase marks on the other side of the net is okay. It took more than a decade of tantrums for Mac to be defaulted in Australia. And it took until 1986 for Connors to be defaulted for “aggravated behavior” in Boca Raton. Ah, but toweling off was a serious crime. How does that explain or excuse the fact that Connors was allowed to do such things? It doesn’t. To me, the Barazzutti episode is by far the most disgusting thing I've ever seen done by a big player on a tennis court, worse than the abortion episode, worse than Mac's smashing glasses, worse than any tantrum by anyone. No wonder Connors says he forgot all about it.

Probably because Connors and McEnroe generated INCREDIBLE revenue. Because unless they played their event had no legitimacy as a grand slam really. And of course if he really angered Connors maybe Connors would be able to use his clout to ruin the Umpire's career. And the Umpire was an American so was probably biased.

Federer swore during a match 5-6 years ago and the umpire and the crowd just laughed. That and the connors incident used to be on youtube, strange they've been taken off isn't it? And then there's Serena Williams threatening to Murder a lineswoman and beat up an Umpire, far worse than ANYTHING McEnroe or Connors ever did (and that's saying something!).

krosero 05-19-2012 06:28 AM

OK here's Nastase rubbing out a mark in '76 at Hilton Head. Three disputed line calls in this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsujQOQxSgw

BeHappy 05-19-2012 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 6547582)
OK here's Nastase rubbing out a mark in '76 at Hilton Head. Three disputed line calls in this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsujQOQxSgw

That is by far the best picture quality video you've ever uploaded. You should reupload the Laver/Borg Hilton match using that technique.


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