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coaching32yrs 06-12-2012 06:46 AM

Tennis recruiting rankings seriously flawed
 
I have direct knowledge of the following situation. A 4 star girl beats a 5 star in a 4 hour marathon. She is exhausted but agrees to play the following round against a 1 star who had a walkover in the previous round. The 4 star is up 3-0 but cramping badly. She has to default. Her TRN ranking goes down 30 spots because she lost to someone 700 places behind her. When the new star rankings come out she has lost a star. She appeals to the folks who run TRN but they will not overule the loss, despite the fact that the winning player did not win any games. Now, some colleges will not consider her because she is a 3 star, not a 4 star. Hard to believe this story but it is true.

kme5150 06-12-2012 07:35 AM

Unfortunately this is how the system works. Our district automatically makes players who withdrawl for any reason play one point and those losses go against their TRN rankings. Just like the player gets a free win for nothing. It used to bother me but now I wish it was mandatory and it would help eliminate players WD from tournaments as soon as they hit the back draw.

If a coach will not consider her because of one loss then those are coaches that you don't want to be involved with anyway. Just like when a coach looks at that 1 star with 1 good win, they usually look at it as a fluke.

TennisNola 06-12-2012 08:25 AM

No offense intended coach, but she didn't "agree" to play her.. she played her because she was entered in the tournament and that was her next round. That's tennis, and worse things have happened.. she was obviously a very low 4 star, if she slipped to 3 stars after this one loss. (and it is unlikely that this one loss is actually what made her slip, because her 5 star win the same day would have added some balance to the equation). If she is a rising senior, she is likely already in contact with the coaches she wants to play for, and she can easily email them about what happened. If she is a rising junior, just forget about it.. she will have many chances to make up for it. Her life will not likely be altered by this, and if it is.. she will have learned more about her body as it relates to what she needs to do to help prevent cramping.. good luck.

treeman10 06-12-2012 08:37 AM

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Misterbill 06-12-2012 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coaching32yrs (Post 6625424)
I have direct knowledge of the following situation. A 4 star girl beats a 5 star in a 4 hour marathon. She is exhausted but agrees to play the following round against a 1 star who had a walkover in the previous round. The 4 star is up 3-0 but cramping badly. She has to default. Her TRN ranking goes down 30 spots because she lost to someone 700 places behind her. When the new star rankings come out she has lost a star. She appeals to the folks who run TRN but they will not overule the loss, despite the fact that the winning player did not win any games. Now, some colleges will not consider her because she is a 3 star, not a 4 star. Hard to believe this story but it is true.

Yes this is hard to believe. In fact right now I do not believe it. Please do the Board a favor and let us know which colleges you are aware of that will eliminate a player from consideration based on your fact situation

dallasoliver 06-12-2012 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coaching32yrs (Post 6625424)
I have direct knowledge of the following situation. A 4 star girl beats a 5 star in a 4 hour marathon. She is exhausted but agrees to play the following round against a 1 star who had a walkover in the previous round. The 4 star is up 3-0 but cramping badly. She has to default. Her TRN ranking goes down 30 spots because she lost to someone 700 places behind her. When the new star rankings come out she has lost a star. She appeals to the folks who run TRN but they will not overule the loss, despite the fact that the winning player did not win any games. Now, some colleges will not consider her because she is a 3 star, not a 4 star. Hard to believe this story but it is true.

It is true that matches count for both players when one of the them retires. Retiring is part of the game, and handling retirements on a case-by-case basis presents logistical nightmares (e.g., scores for retirements are often not recorded, drawing lines as to what scores should count / not count is subjective). For this reason, we count all matches that play more than one point and/or one game. You will find that the USTA and ITF handle things similarly.

I talked to all the principals at TRN, and we do not recall this circumstance - although we have explained our policy to many, and it is included in our FAQ:

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/faq/...asp#Rankings-R

Best regards,
Dallas

dallasoliver 06-12-2012 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kme5150 (Post 6625567)
Unfortunately this is how the system works. Our district automatically makes players who withdrawl for any reason play one point and those losses go against their TRN rankings.

Our system does not count matches coded as withdrawals due to injury or illness that have scores of 15-0, 0-15, 1-0, or 0-1. If someone knows of one of these matches that have been miscoded and are counting, they should email us at info@tennisrecruiting.net so that we can make a correction.

Best,
Dallas

klu375 06-12-2012 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallasoliver (Post 6626148)
Our system does not count matches coded as withdrawals due to injury or illness that have scores of 15-0, 0-15, 1-0, or 0-1. If someone knows of one of these matches that have been miscoded and are counting, they should email us at info@tennisrecruiting.net so that we can make a correction.

Best,
Dallas

Dallas,
How do we know what counts and what does not? Should we assume that all results in player's record with an asterisk do not count and everything else does as per note at the bottom of the player records:
"* The ranking calculation does NOT consider matches marked with an asterisk."
But in the actual players records I can see:
Def (late)*
Wd (ill)*
Wo (inj)*
Wd (admin)*
But also with no asterisk:
15-0Ret (emerg)
0-15Ret (inj)

hound 109 06-12-2012 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallasoliver (Post 6626148)
Our system does not count matches coded as withdrawals due to injury or illness that have scores of 15-0, 0-15, 1-0, or 0-1. If someone knows of one of these matches that have been miscoded and are counting, they should email us at info@tennisrecruiting.net so that we can make a correction.

Best,
Dallas

Thanks for this info Dallas.

So to clarify, if a person loses 6-2, 2-0 (retired because of injury), then you count it.

But if a person (who's wanting to keep the sectional points that he earned in previous matches) plays a point & shakes hands with his opponent. (& they code it 15-0 or 1-0 (inj)).....then TRN doesn't count the match?

Thanks!

dallasoliver 06-12-2012 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hound 109 (Post 6626394)
Thanks for this info Dallas.

So to clarify, if a person loses 6-2, 2-0 (retired because of injury), then you count it.

But if a person (who's wanting to keep the sectional points that he earned in previous matches) plays a point & shakes hands with his opponent. (& they code it 15-0 or 1-0 (inj)).....then TRN doesn't count the match?

Thanks!

Correct.

- Dallas

dallasoliver 06-12-2012 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by klu375 (Post 6626308)
Dallas,
How do we know what counts and what does not? Should we assume that all results in player's record with an asterisk do not count and everything else does as per note at the bottom of the player records:
"* The ranking calculation does NOT consider matches marked with an asterisk."
But in the actual players records I can see:
Def (late)*
Wd (ill)*
Wo (inj)*
Wd (admin)*
But also with no asterisk:
15-0Ret (emerg)
0-15Ret (inj)

None of the scenarios you list above count for our rankings.

The asterisk indicates that a result is not used. My understanding is that all of the above scenarios should include an asterisk. (Julie - am I right on this?)

Best,
Dallas

gully 06-12-2012 12:34 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Dallas provides a GREAT service to coaches and parents both, for really very little money to us parents. And, to boot, I think the ranking system is very good. It's not based on one match but a year's worth of results, and retirements due to lack of conditioning are a part of the game, in juniors and in college. If the 4-star can't beat a 1-star even after a marathon, my guess is the 4-star is close to the 200 spot anyway, and her current star-rating is pretty much always in jeopardy of a bad loss hurting it.

jbw 06-12-2012 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallasoliver (Post 6626650)
None of the scenarios you list above count for our rankings.

The asterisk indicates that a result is not used. My understanding is that all of the above scenarios should include an asterisk. (Julie - am I right on this?)

Best,
Dallas

Dallas -- You are correct that none of the matches listed in klu375's email should be counting as wins and losses in our system.

KLU375 -- Please send me an email with the name of the player(s) where 15-0Ret (emerg) and 0-15Ret (inj) are listed without an asterisk and I will have these results corrected.

Note to parents, players and coaches -- The tournament is required to list retirements when one point has been played. If you see this has been published on TennisLink, please notify me immediately so I can have these results corrected in our ranking system.

tennis5 06-12-2012 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gully (Post 6626696)
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Dallas provides a GREAT service to coaches and parents both, for really very little money to us parents. And, to boot, I think the ranking system is very good. It's not based on one match but a year's worth of results, and retirements due to lack of conditioning are a part of the game, in juniors and in college. If the 4-star can't beat a 1-star even after a marathon, my guess is the 4-star is close to the 200 spot anyway, and her current star-rating is pretty much always in jeopardy of a bad loss hurting it.

That's not really fair. I have witnessed 5 and 4 star players lose to 2 and 1 star players many times due to one player having to play a 3 hour match at noon, or 2:00 in 100 degrees, 106 degrees, 110 degrees, and then the USTA gives them a one hour break between matches. Not 61 minutes mind you.... 60 minutes is all you get......
And then they are heat exhausted, they get injured, and they quit.
I have seen that scenario over and over.....

klu375 06-12-2012 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbw (Post 6627149)
Dallas -- You are correct that none of the matches listed in klu375's email should be counting as wins and losses in our system.

KLU375 -- Please send me an email with the name of the player(s) where 15-0Ret (emerg) and 0-15Ret (inj) are listed without an asterisk and I will have these results corrected.

Note to parents, players and coaches -- The tournament is required to list retirements when one point has been played. If you see this has been published on TennisLink, please notify me immediately so I can have these results corrected in our ranking system.

Julie,
Your TT account is not accepting emails. If you fix it I will send you couple of examples but I have never seen a score like that with an asterisk.

And Tennis Recruiting ranking is not seriously flawed. It is the best ranking system there is to predict relative strength of players. Of course it has limitations, for example, at the Easter Bowl I could see indoor 5-stars struggling against outdoor 4-stars. But yes, comes recruiting age you really need to think hard about letting your kid play sanctioned tournament match when he/she is not 100%. It is the most unfortunate for players caming back from an injury.

mrmo1115 06-12-2012 08:33 PM

Hey Dallas , just had a question that is related to my profile... thought I would post here instead of just creating a topic.

http://tennisrecruiting.net/player.a...7E45047B4BB899

I know the rule for a ranking is 4 wins 3 tournaments... am I right in saying I'll go into the NA ranking after the 8/5/11 tournament rolls off?

Just wanted to clarify.

tball2day 06-12-2012 09:38 PM

.......................

Alohajrtennis 06-12-2012 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis5 (Post 6627432)
That's not really fair. I have witnessed 5 and 4 star players lose to 2 and 1 star players many times due to one player having to play a 3 hour match at noon, or 2:00 in 100 degrees, 106 degrees, 110 degrees, and then the USTA gives them a one hour break between matches. Not 61 minutes mind you.... 60 minutes is all you get......
And then they are heat exhausted, they get injured, and they quit.
I have seen that scenario over and over.....

This seems like one of those situations where life's just not fair, but I don't see anything TRN can do about it. Certainly doesn't make their system flawed. The policies they have in place seem to make sense. If they change their policy for this particular situation, it seems like a slippery slope. Next thing you know they will be getting emails saying "please don't count this match, my child ate some bad fish the night before.."

The fact is the player made a mistake and is paying for it. Maybe didn't drink enough Gatorade or eat enough bananas. Or, if she didn't have enough energy to beat even a one star, she should have walked out on to the court, played a point and shook her hand. Maybe she didn't know that was an option.

What's seriously flawed is if coaches are relying solely on TRN rankings for there recruiting, and not taking the time to dig a little deeper, but that's on the coaches, not TRN.

chalkflewup 06-13-2012 01:48 AM

^^^
Seriously flawed? TRN rankings may factor into the equation, but I don't think coaches are relying solely on TRN rankings for recruiting. It's just one more tool.

dallasoliver 06-13-2012 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmo1115 (Post 6627918)
Hey Dallas , just had a question that is related to my profile... thought I would post here instead of just creating a topic.

http://tennisrecruiting.net/player.a...7E45047B4BB899

I know the rule for a ranking is 4 wins 3 tournaments... am I right in saying I'll go into the NA ranking after the 8/5/11 tournament rolls off?

Just wanted to clarify.

Hey mrmo1115 -

The link that you posted does not bring me to a player - the URL needs to have an "id" argument at the end.

But yes - you have the general policy correct.

Best,
Dallas


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