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-   -   Suggestions on GoPro HD Hero2 or equivalent... (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=431983)

jaykay 07-11-2012 09:02 PM

Suggestions on GoPro HD Hero2 or equivalent...
 
(...and yes, I have indeed looked up the old threads)

G'day folks, need some help here. I'm looking for an HD camera to record videos of my 10-yr-old playing tennis. He is an upcoming jr (we are in Melbourne, VIC, Australia).

I'm looking at 720p (but can live with 480p) 16:9, at 120fps (but can live with 60fps). Would want to record for 3+ hours and edit with an iMac. Slo-mo's are an important requirement for serve/stroke analysis. I'm looking for something that won't break the bank.

Anybody used the GoPro HD Hero2 for tennis? [see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZsykO1lXkU]. If yes, what are the settings used (medium angle, 720p 60fps, maybe)? Can you provide some link for uploaded videos? {Fyi, this is under $300 on Amazon}

Any other comparable options that ought to be considered? Your suggestions and guidance would be most appreciated.

Cheers,
jaykay.

jaykay 07-12-2012 12:42 PM

Somebody, anybody...? (wringing my hands hopefully...!)

SwankPeRFection 07-12-2012 04:58 PM

I have one of those Koday waterproof pocket cams that can take any size micro SD with an adapter. It can shoot fast action and I just bought one of those bendy tentacle looking tripod and hook that one the fence if no one can shoot for me. Works great and it didn't cost what a GoPro does. If I wanted to get crazy I'd take my Canon DSLR out and shoot that way, but I'm almost positive if someone stole that I'd be more ticked than if they stole the Kodak. Lol

It was a Zx3.

Chas Tennis 07-13-2012 07:22 AM

reference
 
See

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=405536

A perfectly adequate camera with high speed video capability and MANUAL exposure control to minimize motion blur for stroke analysis is the Casio FH100. Unfortunately, since 2010 Casio no longer manufactures this camera. Some new left-over stock from Japan appear on E*bay, $380. Used FH100 cameras are also available. [In HD the FH100 records to only a maximum 4 Gb video file size even with a large SD card installed so that the camera must be restarted to record long match times.]

To my knowledge all other currently available affordable high speed video cameras are AUTO exposure control. Too much motion blur will result.

See also Kinovea for basic high speed video camera considerations.

http://www.kinovea.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?id=435

If I could find HD and high speed video together in an affordable camera I'd buy in a second, good luck. If you wish to do high speed video for stroke analysis research also Jello Effect distortions for any camera that you are considering.

You can get cameras that do 60p - 60 frames per second progressive - that will AUTO select very fast shutter speeds in bright direct sunlight. 60p with small motion blur can be very useful even for some slower stroke analysis. Forget the serve.

Sorry that I don't have any experience with the Hero..........

jaykay 07-14-2012 02:41 PM

Thanks, Chas.

I did read that weblink earlier. And yes, my major grouse is that the Casio FH100 is discontinued and it might be a little dodgy buying one on Fleabay. I'll hunt some more... Has any replacement been launched yet for the FH100 by Casio?

I would want to view it on a 16:9 widescreen HDTV and in slo-mo; mainly for groundstrokes and serves. 720p/120fps would be desirable, but I can live with 720p/60fps. A half-decent poor man's compromise to the FH100 seems to be the GoPro HD Hero2. The 720p/60fps slowed down to about 40% on the GoPro HD Hero2 seems ok; but I'd like to hear from somebody on this forum who has actually used this for tennis. As you rightly pointed out, I can't afford any 1080p camera which films in high-speed.

Chas Tennis 07-14-2012 03:44 PM

No Casio replacement with MANUAL shutter speed control. The Casio ZR200 is AUTO exposure control.

1) You can slow down 60p for display but you cannot see the faster parts of the serve and other strokes accurately with 60 fps sampling.

2) AUTO shutter motion blur?

3) Jello Effect?

There are probably many Youtube examples of sports videos, golf, tennis, baseball, with the GoPro Hero2 or any other camera.

Greg G 07-14-2012 03:52 PM

Well if you want samples, all my videos were taken with my GoPro HD Hero (not the 2). 720p, 30fps.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=430395

Greg G 07-14-2012 03:56 PM

Now that you brought it to my attention...will try 720p 60 fps next time.

SwankPeRFection 07-14-2012 08:52 PM

The Kodak I spoke about does 60 FPS at 720p. What the problem is? :p

Chas Tennis 07-14-2012 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg G (Post 6726933)
Well if you want samples, all my videos were taken with my GoPro HD Hero (not the 2). 720p, 30fps.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=430395

(FYI, Greg G, after you have posted 50 replies you will be able to edit your replies. See the "edit" option.)

Your videos would improve by 60p, a larger image (with a fixed lens be careful you don't hit the camera), and direct sunlight outdoors (the AUTO might select a faster shutter speed).

Sample video Casio FH100 at 240 fps

https://vimeo.com/40449544

Manual shutter probably 1/10,000 sec - stop frame and examine motion blur. Used the telephoto zoom lens to see stroke detail.

The best stop action that I have found for Vimeo or Youtube is to click the play-pause button as fast as possible.

There are also some Jello Effect Tests in my Vimeo videos.

The Casio also has 30-240 or 30-120 fps modes. The video records at 30 fps and then when the the trigger is hit again it switches to 240 fps. Standard and high speed video in the same video back & forth 30 to 240 to 30 to 240 fps........., etc..

My only interest so far has been high speed video for stroke analysis. If I wanted to video an entire match I'd use my Aiptek HD Action at 720 60p. It produces sharp pictures in sunlight - fast shutter low motion blur - but there is some minor Jello Effect. [Jello Effect increases with the number of pixels read out so that HD is likely to have more JE distortion in comparison to the reduced resolution cameras designed for high speed video performance.]

Rare 07-15-2012 02:13 AM

I've got the gopro hd2

The maxfps are:
1080~30 fps
720~60 fps
vga~120 fps

jaykay 07-24-2012 02:31 PM

Chas - Can you upload some videos from your Aiptek at 720p 60fps?

jaykay 07-24-2012 02:32 PM

Rare: Can you upload some slo-mo tennis videos from your GoPro HD2 at 720p/60fps?

Chas Tennis 07-24-2012 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaykay (Post 6749472)
Chas - Can you upload some videos from your Aiptek at 720p 60fps?

I have an older Aiptek. Aiptek ActionHD(2008 ), 5 Megapixel. It does 1080 30 fps & 720 at 60fps progressive. I especially like it because in bright sunlight I believe its AUTO control chooses a faster shutter speed so that motion blur is small. I did a Jello Effect test and posted it on Vimeo. It shows the sharpness and Jello Effect of the camera. The rotating tube simulates the arm rotation seen in the serve - axial arm rotation produced by internal shoulder rotation.
https://vimeo.com/30281692

I just saw this model on sale on Amazon for about $60. I guess that there are a few new AIPTEK ActionHD cameras still around. ?
http://www.amazon.com/AIPTEK-ActionH...ef=cm_cmu_pg_t

There is another Aiptek Action GVS .... - not that one!

The one I have does a good job showing strokes - only not the highest speed stuff. The stop-action single frame on the camera is not good so you should plan to view on a computer for stop action. My camera came with a remote which is a very good thing to have. But the remote is not mentioned on the box or in the user's manual so maybe not all the cameras came with a remote.

The Aiptek ActionHD is a useful camera but the Casio FH100 has everything needed for tennis stroke analysis.

Chas Tennis 07-26-2012 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaykay (Post 6749472)
Chas - Can you upload some videos from your Aiptek at 720p 60fps?

Sample videos of a backhand and forehand using the AIPTEK ActionHD (5 Megapixel) camera in 720 60p mode.

Forehand
https://vimeo.com/46427326

Backhand
https://vimeo.com/46427230

These videos display considerably more sharply directly on my computer and not through Vimeo. Compression issue? These were taken in bright sunlight. Notice that the edges of the racket and other rapidly moving edges do not have excessive motion blur.

Jello Effect Distortion. On the backhand video, stop frame right after the ball impact. You will notice that the racket face appears to be bent. I believe that is false image bending due to Jello Effect distortion of the AIPTEK under these specific shooting conditions.

How is this camera any better than a smartphone cameras or any other 60 fps progressive camcorder or camera? Smartphone cameras also seem to select a very fast shutter speed in bright sunlight. Test motion blur. Is the smartphone 30 fps or 60 fps? Smartphones have a fixed wide angle lens and not a 3X Zoom like this Aiptek and therefore require closer positioning of the camera for acceptable image size. There is more distortion using wide-angle fixed lens. How much Jello Effect is there on a given model of smartphone? Other 60p camcorders/cameras have an unknown amount of Jello Effect. Most importantly it is unknown how the AUTO exposure control will select shutter speed. Test any video camera or smartphone in bright sunlight to observe motion blur.

I hope that there are some properly framed Smartphone, GoPro Hero 2, and other 60p videos for comparisons of tennis stroke videos.

Outdoor sunlight lighting is about 100X as strong as indoor lighting so AUTO will have to select a much slower shutter speed with much increased motion blur.

Unfortunately, this Aiptek model is an older one and I don't know how other Aiptek models perform. I have found it impossible to find information on how the AUTO exposure control works in any camera models from any manufacturer. Suggest testing the cameras for motion blur in bright sunlight.

jaykay 07-28-2012 05:04 PM

Thanks for taking all the effort, Chas. How does one do slo-mo? Is this all done post-processing?
(Sorry for all the q's - total newbie here...)

Chas Tennis 07-28-2012 06:40 PM

Slo Motion Viewing, Stop-Action Single-Frame and Videos for Display
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaykay (Post 6759016)
Thanks for taking all the effort, Chas. How does one do slo-mo? Is this all done post-processing?
(Sorry for all the q's - total newbie here...)

I am interested in tennis stroke analysis and shoot high speed videos at 240 fps always using faster shutter speeds to reduce motion blur. I use mainly stop-action single-frame analysis of the videos to identify what is missing, done wrong, poorly timed, etc., in my strokes. I easily find many issues to work on. Since I take videos at 240 fps and they are played back at 30 fps, time is already stretched by 8 times just from the 240 fps/30 fps ratio. In addition, the Casio FH100 viewing screen is large, about 3" across, and I do a lot of viewing and editing on the camera itself. The FH100 will also playback the 240 fps forward or backward at variable slow speeds. My need for showing videos to others is very low so I have not done much video editing. If I had 60 fps to view in slo motion I would view it either on 1) Quicktime - QT can play back at 1/2 speed or 2) Kinovea Version 8.15, variable playback speed from 3-198% of original playback speed. Both QT and Kinovea are free. But again, so far, I do almost all single frame analysis with just a little slo motion playback.

Editing to Display Videos at 30 fps. Take a video at 30 or 60 fps and stretch it to make a new video that displays for a much longer time. To display a video slowly there are video editing programs that will basically repeat a frame a few times or more for display at 30 fps- so that the faster things can be observed when displayed at 30 fps. There are also more sophisticated video editors that will compute intermediate false frames between the real frames and make a new video that plays slower. I consider those techniques to be for display purposes and not for analysis.

Example, a fast event videoed at 60 fps with fast shutter. Musket firing that lasts about 0.12 seconds stretched by video editing software to display for 3.5 seconds for understandable viewing at 30 fps playback.
https://vimeo.com/40244658

Chas Tennis 10-02-2012 08:02 AM

SONY HDR AS15 Action Cam with WiFi to Smartphone
 
I don't know much about this new camera but it is similar to the GoPro with 120 fps and HD.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=42582261

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430870/th...-cam-with-wifi

It might have some unique and useful applications in tennis but for the most detailed stroke analysis consider the replies in this thread.

Greg G 12-07-2012 02:02 AM

This new Exilim FC-200s looks interesting!

Movies:FHD : 1920 x1080(30fps) / HD : 1280x720(15fps) / STD:640x480(30fps) / HS1000:22464(1000fps) / HS 480 : 224 x160(480fps) / HS 240 : 512 x384(240fps) / HS 120 : 640 x480(120fps) / HS 30-240 : 512 x384(30 to 240fps) / HS 30-120 : 640 x480(30 to 120fps)

The golf functions might be useful for tennis.

http://www.casio-intl.com/asia-mea/en/dc/ex_fc200s/




Chas Tennis 12-07-2012 03:26 AM

A thread on the Casio FC200S from a golf forum.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/...asio+%2Bfc200s

There is a golf video in Japanese (?). At 2:12 on the side view you can see the motion blur on the club head . You might also try searching Youtube with golf Casio FC200S. Always look for a side view to examine motion blur as the club head moves across the frame rather than away from the camera as in the rear golf view.

You can also download the complete user's manual from Casio support.

A discussion of manual exposure, Auto exposure, setting shutter speed and motion blur is in
http://www.kinovea.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?id=435
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=405536

Since the Casio FH100 went out of production (2011?) I don't know of another affordable camera where you can set the shutter speed in high speed video mode.


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