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-   -   Gonzales VS Rosewall: The Ultimate Battle Fight 2 - More Impressive Career? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=433303)

Nathaniel_Near 07-22-2012 05:00 PM

Gonzales VS Rosewall: The Ultimate Battle Fight 2 - More Impressive Career?
 
It's time to, once again, celebrate two great players, dissect their games, careers, and analyse their accomplishments. Oh, and to just generally be respectful to legends of the game, provide anecdotes, match highlights, articles, and whatever else.



The Ultimate Battle Fight 2 - More Impressive Career?

WHAT. Say you...

Some interesting statistics in no particular order of importance:

Years as numero uno:
Gonzales - 6 to 8?
Rosewall - 2 to 5?

Majors won:
Gonzales - 14 arguably more depending..
Rosewall - 23 arguably more depending..

Tournaments won:
Gonzales - no idea
Rosewall - 132 +

Most officially recognized major events won in a single calendar year:
Gonzales - 2-3
Rosewall - 3

Impact on the sport of tennis in any and every way (subjective but probably the consensus):
Gonzales - Considerable, was considered the greatest for rather some time.
Rosewall - Was important but perhaps overshadowed by Gonzales and Laver.

Various individual records held by each player for the Open Era:
Gonzales - Arguably the longest standing no.1 player in the history of tennis, 8 US Pro titles, including 7 in a row.
Rosewall - 10 majors won in France, 7 in a row. Won the Pro Slam in 1963. Won nine consecutive majors (where he participated).

Head to head record:

Gonzales 107 - 75 Rosewall

PANCHO GONZALES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd0gJzm_EQY

***

KEN ROSEWALL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppi58rmrEHc

BobbyOne 07-22-2012 05:30 PM

Thanks, Nathaniel for rising an interesting question.

Gonzalez and Rosewall are two of my four all-time greatest (the other being Laver and Tilden) and both are candidates for GOAT.

Rosewall had only two or three years as No.1 (1961-1963) but he had also several years as arguably Co.-No 1: 1959 when he was 8:4 against Pancho, 1960, 1964 (when he was the official No.1 even though some posters ignore it), 1965 (two Pro GSs), 1970 (together with Laver and maybe Newcombe) and 1971 (together with Smith and Newcombe), thus making nine possible years as No. 1...

One record is unique for Muscles: He won nine consecutive majors (where he participated), being ahead of Tilden (8) and Budge (6) and better than Laver, Sampras, Federer and all the others...

Mustard 07-22-2012 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel_Near (Post 6745343)
Most officially recognized major events won in a single calendar year:
Gonzales - 2
Rosewall - 3

Gonzales won the Wembley Pro, US Pro and Tournament of Champions in 1956, and was runner-up in the French Pro. As for the thread question, one can talk about Rosewall winning more classic majors and the fact that he was still young enough to win majors in the open era, but Gonzales was the better player.

Gonzales won 113 career titles, by the way.

Nathaniel_Near 07-22-2012 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 6745415)
Gonzales won the Wembley Pro, US Pro and Tournament of Champions in 1956, and was runner-up in the French Pro. As for the thread question, one can talk about Rosewall winning more classic majors and the fact that he was still young enough to win majors in the open era, but Gonzales was the better player.

Yeh, so was this ToC considered a major championship? I tend to see the majors count for Gonzales to be 14, but a wiki page suggests 17, and to include his ToC victories.

Mustard 07-22-2012 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel_Near (Post 6745424)
Yeh, so was this ToC considered a major championship? I tend to see the majors count for Gonzales to be 14, but a wiki page suggests 17, and to include his ToC victories.

Well, I would count the Tournament of Champions because it was a huge professional tournament between 1956-1959. It was held indoors in Los Angeles in 1956, and arguably grew even more in stature when it moved to the grass-courts of Forest Hills from 1957-1959. Gonzales won the event in 1956, 1957 and 1958, but was beaten by Hoad in the 1959 final.

hoodjem 07-22-2012 05:55 PM

a.) Who is overall greater?
b.) Who had the more impressive career?

I believe that these are two different questions with two different answers.

Gonzales
Rosewall

Mustard 07-22-2012 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem (Post 6745441)
a.) Who is overall greater?
b.) Who had the more impressive career?

I believe that this is two different questions with two different answers.

Gonzales
Rosewall

Rosewall's career could be considered more impressive on the basis that Gonzales was banned from the mainstream majors for over 18 years and was 40 years old by the time he could play them again. And also, during Gonzales' prime, the pro tours were even more important than the tournaments overall. This changed in the 1960s.

Nathaniel_Near 07-22-2012 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoodjem (Post 6745441)
a.) Who is overall greater?
b.) Who had the more impressive career?

I believe that this is two different questions with two different answers.

Gonzales
Rosewall

Well, they were put there for bait in the first place. Indeed, are the two questions intertwined and the answer for both inseparably the same, or can they yield different answers. If one was greater, then maybe so was their career (more impressive) regardless of the numbers, as the context in which they achieved their greatness escalates them above the other.

Mustard 07-22-2012 06:05 PM

Rosewall was unbelievably consistent, though, and made a habit out of upsetting favoured players in big finals. He did this to Gonzales in the 1961 French Pro final to deny Gonzales a title he never managed to win. Rosewall also upset Laver a load of times, even as late as 1972. Apart from his failure to win Wimbledon, Rosewall was brilliant at taking advantage of his opportunities when they came along.

hoodjem 07-22-2012 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel_Near (Post 6745450)
Well, they were put there for bait in the first place. Indeed, are the two questions intertwined and the answer for both inseparably the same, or can they yield different answers.

NN, you sly devil.

Mustard 07-22-2012 06:22 PM

The 1957 world pro tour between Gonzales and Rosewall ended at 50-26 to Gonzales.

BobbyOne 07-22-2012 06:39 PM

Nathaniel,

Thanks for putting in that impressive Rosewall achievement of winning nine consecutive majors.

I love the discussion in this thread with you, Mustard and hoodjem and hopefully some others.Threads like this can show even the "youngsters" among the fans how great a Gonzalez and Rosewall and Laver have been

Gonzalez was great with his winning of 7 big world pro tours and I rank him first all time on indoor surface.

It's maybe interesting to mention that Rosewall, who was a typical claycourt and even grasscourt player, won his most big titles indoors on very fast surfaces, arguably his worst surface (9 or even 11 if we add the WCT finals at Dallas).

Gonzalez was the oldest man in open era to win a regular tournament (at 44) and Rosewall was the oldest man to win an open major (at 37) and to reach a SF of an open major (at 42).

We could add yet this and that record of both of them...

BobbyOne 07-22-2012 06:47 PM

Mustard,

More impressive in Pancho's favour was the 1960 tour when Gonzalez beat Rosewall 14 or 15 to 4 matches. I don't give too much credit to Gonzalez's 1957 win because, as we know, Rosewall was a newcomer in the pro ranks while Gonzalez was in his absolute prime. 26:50 is pretty good for the Little Master...

If you include the ToC (I agree that they were very tough events!) you could or should also include Rosewall's big 1966 Madison Square Garden victory over Gonzalez and Laver. Maybe even we could add the Wembley BBC 2 event won by Gonzalez in 1966 (and inofficially in 1964) and Rosewall in 1967. The four best players in the world participating....

BobbyOne 07-22-2012 07:40 PM

Hi experts,

Gonzalez is 107:75 against Rosewall (maybe some more matches will be discovered yet). That's great for Pancho. On the other hand we should consider that these two giants of tennis only seldom met on clay which was Pancho's worst surface (even though he yet was rather strong there) and Kenny's best one. They mostly played indoor matches where Gonzalez was the undisputed king. So it's not clear that Gonzalez was really the better player. At big events Rosewall leads 3:1 matches...

Dan Lobb 07-24-2012 08:46 AM

[quote=BobbyOne;6745518]Mustard,

More impressive in Pancho's favour was the 1960 tour when Gonzalez beat Rosewall 14 or 15 to 4 matches. I don't give too much credit to Gonzalez's 1957 win because, as we know, Rosewall was a newcomer in the pro ranks while Gonzalez was in his absolute prime. 26:50 is pretty good for the Little Master...

Not so good was the fact that both of these tours lost big money for the pro tour, and that Rosewall played the 1960 tour after Hoad turned it down.
In fact, after the 1960 disaster, Hoad signed for the 1961 tour as a favour to Kramer, but withdrew after fracturing a foot.
There was no tour in 1962, and who could have played it? Laver turned down Kramer's offer to turn pro in 1961, which caused Kramer to resign his position as tour manager and promoter.
Even when Laver turned pro, the Rosewall-Laver show was insufficient draw to play the major tennis venues, as the 1963 Forest Hills disaster demonstrated.

Nadal_Power 07-24-2012 08:56 AM

This thread should be great.. we probably can't tell which of them is greater but can learn as much as we can about all time legends

Russeljones 07-24-2012 09:24 AM

Difficult question. I like the differentiation between greater and career. And I kind of agree with it.

Maybe an interesting angle would be to look for similarities between the two and two modern players. Who would they be?

BobbyOne 07-24-2012 12:11 PM

Nadal Power,

I agree. Rosewall and Gonzalez are both first tier.

BobbyOne 07-24-2012 12:26 PM

Dan "Hoad is GOAT" Lobb,

I'm a great Hoad admirer and concede that Lew was arguably the strongest when "on".

But I regret that you tend to denigrate Rosewall all the time.

I concede that Hoad was Kramer's darling but you should also know that Muscles Rosewall was maybe the most admired player of his time. A crowd's darling.

You are correct that the 1963 US Pro was a disaster but the Wembley event was almost every year a success even when Hoad did not participate. Large attendance.

BobbyOne 07-24-2012 12:40 PM

Dan Lobb,

I also must contradict you when you say that Hoad was dominating Rosewall on clay. I just cannot trust your 16:7 balance of Hoad on clay for 1957.

As far as I know Hoad and Rosewall stood 14:14 in their pro matches on December 3 (according to Joe McCauley).

In the 1958 Perrier Cup on clay Rosewall beat Hoad 4:1 matches. In the 1960s
Muscles dominated Hoadie clearly.

I have counted an overall 83:59 head to head of Rosewall against Hoad (amateur plus pro). In big events Rosewall leads 11:3...

But I concede that Hoad without his several injuries would have matched both Laver and Rosewall in the 1960s


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