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Fearsome Forehand 07-23-2012 09:40 AM

Penn State Sanctions
 
At first blush, I thought PSU got off a little light. However, when one considers the implications of the NCAA's penalties, it would seem their football program will be all but ruined for about a decade. Maybe that is still sort of light given the horrendous nature of enabling a child molester to continue to molest children for years after PSU first learned of his crimes.

I post on football-related site sometimes and quite a few people maintained that this is not a matter into which the NCAA should intervene. I always took the position that they had to intervene or risk being a laughing stock.

My guess was a 5 year bowl ban and a significant loss of scholarships. The fine leaked out yesterday so that was a known. They actually got a 4 year bowl ban and will lose 10 scholarships/year for 4 years. All of their players are allowed to transfer out immediately without sitting out a year. I imagine many of the underclassmen may bolt. I think what may hurt them most is almost no elite player will even consider them for several years.

A year ago this situation would have been unimaginable. Paterno was a college football god, Sandusky was a respected top ex-DC would ran a successful charity and PSU had one of the premiere football programs in college football. A year later, Paterno has been fired in disgrace and is dead, Sandusky is a convicted child molester facing life in prison and PSU's reputation is about as tarnished as is possible.

I feel sorry for their fans and the players but not the university itself.

smoledman 07-23-2012 09:41 AM

Should just shutter the entire university.

norbac 07-23-2012 09:46 AM

The only people who have actually been found to be involved with the incident are either in jail or no longer with us. They seem to have punished the wrong people. I'm all for the 60 million dollar fine which is going to charities, but it just seems ridiculous to me that the kids that for whatever reason chose to go and play for the university are receiving so much punishment.

Then again, I don't think we'll ever know the full extent as to how many people actually were involved in this....

Kevin T 07-23-2012 09:47 AM

I think the penalty is 20 scholarships per year? Add to the above vacating all wins since '98. It's probably as close to the death penalty you can get without being the full death penalty. It's been 25 years since SMU's NCAA hammering and they still haven't recovered. Penn St certainly has more tradition and $$ but I would guess 15-20 years before they compete for a national title again. They honestly haven't contended in over a decade, so maybe longer?

jmverdugo 07-23-2012 09:48 AM

the thing is ... they decided Not to care about the foundation kids, that is what sucks big time, it feels like they did not care about them because they type of kid they were.

hollywood9826 07-23-2012 09:49 AM

The NCAA had to do something. Penn State leadership at the time accoring to the report knew about these allegations and did for all inetents and purposes did nothign about it, the save the school and the football program. Had they not wiped this under the rug for 10 years would they have been able to recruit some of thier guys? Fot that reason you have to strip the wins and penalize them.

Fearsome Forehand 07-23-2012 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norbac (Post 6746595)
The only people who have actually been found to be involved with the incident are either in jail or no longer with us. They seem to have punished the wrong people. I'm all for the 60 million dollar fine which is going to charities, but it just seems ridiculous to me that the kids that for whatever reason chose to go and play for the university are receiving so much punishment.

Then again, I don't think we'll ever know the full extent as to how many people actually were involved in this....

You could make that argument about any punished program. USC, in particular, where one bad apple (Reggie Bush) took the whole team down. The problems are almost always confined to a few players who broke the rules, or an assistant coach who violated recruiting rules, and/or a crazy booster.

This particular scandal involved the university president, a VP and the head football coach covering up child molestation to preserve PSU's reputation. That is a very severe action and requires a severe punishment.

If anything, the full cooperation of the new president lessened the punishment somewhat. If he had stonewalled, I think PSU football would have received about a 5 year death penalty.

This is the sort of thing that happens when the tail wags the dog. Paterno had absolute power at PSU so perhaps this outcome was predictable.

norbac 07-23-2012 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywood9826 (Post 6746603)
The NCAA had to do something. Penn State leadership at the time accoring to the report knew about these allegations and did for all inetents and purposes did nothign about it, the save the school and the football program. Had they not wiped this under the rug for 10 years would they have been able to recruit some of thier guys? Fot that reason you have to strip the wins and penalize them.

Understandable, but if it truly is all about the victims like the pro-death penalty supporters seem to always go back to, why not fine the school multiple years and give that to charity.

I do agree with vacating all the wins, championships, bowl wins, etc., though it does seem a bit childish in my mind (not implementing it, but just the idea of vacating wins in general).

norbac 07-23-2012 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fearsome Forehand (Post 6746606)
You could make that argument about any punished program. USC, in particular, where one bad apple (Reggie Bush) took the whole team down. The problems are almost always confined to a few players who broke the rules, or an assistant coach who violated recruiting rules, and/or a crazy booster.

This particular scandal involved the university president, a VP and the head football coach covering up child molestation to preserve PSU's reputation. That is a very severe action and requires a severe punishment.

If anything, the full cooperation of the new president lessened the punishment somewhat. If he had stonewalled, I think PSU football would have received about a 5 year death penalty.

This is the sort of thing that happens when the tail wags the dog. Paterno had absolute power at PSU so perhaps this outcome was predictable.

I just don't like the fact that under this system (through which both USC and PSU got punished) the majority of those who feel the brunt of it are seemingly innocent. Though, of course, I understand they're part of the bigger 'program', which is what is meant to be punished.

Fearsome Forehand 07-23-2012 09:59 AM

I think the NCAA was very cognizant of the potential for collateral damage. That is the primary reason, IMHO, that PSU did not lose its football program entirely for about 5 years.

That said, I do feel for the fans and the players.

hollywood9826 07-23-2012 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norbac (Post 6746595)
The only people who have actually been found to be involved with the incident are either in jail or no longer with us. They seem to have punished the wrong people. I'm all for the 60 million dollar fine which is going to charities, but it just seems ridiculous to me that the kids that for whatever reason chose to go and play for the university are receiving so much punishment.

Then again, I don't think we'll ever know the full extent as to how many people actually were involved in this....

The 5 and 4 star(which is most of the scholarships) recruits will not get penalized. They can transfer with out penalty and the NCAA may even add that scholarship to the school. Those guys should be fine. Especially the underclassmen. The main issues will be with the upperclassmen who dont want to transfer or dont have the ability to transfere becuase they aint good enough. They will get hit a little without the scholarships. But if PSU has any sense they will kick in an ademic scholarship to make up the difference. Theer are probably quite a few who will simply not play this year becuase the scrutiny of the road games while they sit on the bench wont be worth it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin T (Post 6746598)
I think the penalty is 20 scholarships per year? Add to the above vacating all wins since '98. It's probably as close to the death penalty you can get without being the full death penalty. It's been 25 years since SMU's NCAA hammering and they still haven't recovered. Penn St certainly has more tradition and $$ but I would guess 15-20 years before they compete for a national title again. They honestly haven't contended in over a decade, so maybe longer?

A while ago liek 2004 they were close to letting Paterno go. they had had 4 bad years out of 5 and felt Paterno was mentally losing it. Then they had an 11 win year and that planted him as a fixture for however long he wanted.

norbac 07-23-2012 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hollywood9826 (Post 6746618)
The 5 and 4 star(which is most of the scholarships) recruits will not get penalized. They can transfer with out penalty and the NCAA may even add that scholarship to the school. Those guys should be fine. Especially the underclassmen. The main issues will be with the upperclassmen who dont want to transfer or dont have the ability to transfere becuase they aint good enough. They will get hit a little without the scholarships. But if PSU has any sense they will kick in an ademic scholarship to make up the difference. Theer are probably quite a few who will simply not play this year becuase the scrutiny of the road games while they sit on the bench wont be worth it.




A while ago liek 2004 they were close to letting Paterno go. they had had 4 bad years out of 5 and felt Paterno was mentally losing it. Then they had an 11 win year and that planted him as a fixture for however long he wanted.

I just feel for the kids who maybe always wanted to play for the university, grew up as fans, their families went there, or whatever, and have worked so hard for a scholarship only for the actions of others to affect them so heavily. At least they're going to let them transfer without any complications.

ollinger 07-23-2012 11:32 AM

Paterno gets posthumous punishment. Since the team vacates all wins between 1998 and 2011, JoPa drops from 1st to 12th on the all time coaches win list.

BigServer1 07-23-2012 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin T (Post 6746598)
I think the penalty is 20 scholarships per year? Add to the above vacating all wins since '98. It's probably as close to the death penalty you can get without being the full death penalty. It's been 25 years since SMU's NCAA hammering and they still haven't recovered. Penn St certainly has more tradition and $$ but I would guess 15-20 years before they compete for a national title again. They honestly haven't contended in over a decade, so maybe longer?

This...All of this.

Penn State won't recover this decade, likely not in the 20s either.

Added to the punishment is the reason they were punished. If I'm an 18 YO high school super star, I don't want anything to do with this team, ever. "Oh I played college football at Penn State" will forever be met with "oh it was so awful what happened there". I think that will take even longer to get over, and it will haunt the program forever.

r2473 07-23-2012 11:45 AM

i wonder if this will have a carryover effect and hurt their wrestling recruiting (for example).

fyi, penn state is back-to-back wrestling champs

Fearsome Forehand 07-23-2012 11:58 AM

^ Perhaps, but to a much lesser degree than the damage to the football program. The NCAA stipulated that the fine be paid for by football proceeds exclusively. $60M represents about one year's gross revenue for PSU football. PSU can't pay the fine by robbing the other sports.

PSU's reputation will be badly tarnished for quite a while over this. This was easily the worst scandal in NCAA history.

Fearsome Forehand 07-23-2012 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ollinger (Post 6746761)
Paterno gets posthumous punishment. Since the team vacates all wins between 1998 and 2011, JoPa drops from 1st to 12th on the all time coaches win list.

I wish he had lived long enough to see the outcome of the coverup. Very sad end to the stellar career he had at PSU.

Kevin T 07-23-2012 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigServer1 (Post 6746779)
This...All of this.

Penn State won't recover this decade, likely not in the 20s either.

Added to the punishment is the reason they were punished. If I'm an 18 YO high school super star, I don't want anything to do with this team, ever. "Oh I played college football at Penn State" will forever be met with "oh it was so awful what happened there". I think that will take even longer to get over, and it will haunt the program forever.

Absolutely. Recruiting was already passing PSU by and now this. Unless you are a native of Pennsylvania (and even then), what about PSU a few years down the road could possibly intice you as a blue chip recruit? Which big time coach, a requirement to recruit these days, chooses to go there? You have to think the program is scarred at least a couple of generations.

Kevin T 07-23-2012 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r2473 (Post 6746786)
i wonder if this will have a carryover effect and hurt their wrestling recruiting (for example).

fyi, penn state is back-to-back wrestling champs

If you believe some of the stats about big time college programs funding the non-revenue sports, I don't see how it couldn't have an impact. Then you also have the stigma of playing for PSU or 'perv state university', something I've already heard teens saying.

Fearsome Forehand 07-23-2012 12:19 PM

PSU is a state school. The taxpayers in PA will pay the fine, ultimately.


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