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-   -   Anyone have a League Coordinator as the worse offender of sandbagging? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=434545)

DeanMacBaine 08-01-2012 07:12 PM

Anyone have a League Coordinator as the worse offender of sandbagging?
 
In our league, this guys team wins the Fort Worth playoff every season in the 4.0 division. He has a great core of senior guys that all used to be 4.5 and are now 4.0. These guys all go to nationals almost every season as a senior team. If they get bumped to 4.5, the admittedly try to lose every match in the fall season to get bumped down for the next spring (he runs a 4.5 team for this purpose too).

He brings unrated players on in the fall and has them go about .500 so they can be computer rated for spring and thus no dreaded DQs. As a team they also lose 1-2 matches towards the end of each season just to keep their ratings down. And they will lose to some pretty bad teams or some marginal players that should be probably be 3.5.

Anyway, they kick *** in playoffs and win every year, usually in a 4-1 or 5-0 match every time. This year was the closest anyone has come in awhile pushing it to 3-2 in the finals but they beat the same team 4-1 in the regular season. Then they use fall league as a way to bring their ratings down. They get 3 guys bumped to 4.5 in the mid season but all are able to play on the 4.0 Senior team. Now this playoff team is going to sectionals but 0-4 in this senior league. These 4.5 guys have yet to win more than 3-4 games total against very poor 4.0s and even one 3.5 rated guy that was playing up. It obvious what they are doing. Hell if they were olympic badminton players, they'd be DQd. But what can be done about this? Again, this is the League Coordinator for all of the Fort Worth men's leagues. If this guy is so blatantly gaming the system, it basically means we all have to cheat or find 4.5 guys intentionally willing to lose games to compete.

And should the USTA consider weighting the fall leagues differently? This guy uses it solely for bringing ratings down. I'm sure alot of the national level teams do this as well.

Larrysümmers 08-01-2012 11:00 PM

that's one of the pleasures of being good at tennis :twisted:

TennisDawg 08-02-2012 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanMacBaine (Post 6770017)
In our league, this guys team wins the Fort Worth playoff every season in the 4.0 division. He has a great core of senior guys that all used to be 4.5 and are now 4.0. These guys all go to nationals almost every season as a senior team. If they get bumped to 4.5, the admittedly try to lose every match in the fall season to get bumped down for the next spring (he runs a 4.5 team for this purpose too).

He brings unrated players on in the fall and has them go about .500 so they can be computer rated for spring and thus no dreaded DQs. As a team they also lose 1-2 matches towards the end of each season just to keep their ratings down. And they will lose to some pretty bad teams or some marginal players that should be probably be 3.5.

Anyway, they kick *** in playoffs and win every year, usually in a 4-1 or 5-0 match every time. This year was the closest anyone has come in awhile pushing it to 3-2 in the finals but they beat the same team 4-1 in the regular season. Then they use fall league as a way to bring their ratings down. They get 3 guys bumped to 4.5 in the mid season but all are able to play on the 4.0 Senior team. Now this playoff team is going to sectionals but 0-4 in this senior league. These 4.5 guys have yet to win more than 3-4 games total against very poor 4.0s and even one 3.5 rated guy that was playing up. It obvious what they are doing. Hell if they were olympic badminton players, they'd be DQd. But what can be done about this? Again, this is the League Coordinator for all of the Fort Worth men's leagues. If this guy is so blatantly gaming the system, it basically means we all have to cheat or find 4.5 guys intentionally willing to lose games to compete.

And should the USTA consider weighting the fall leagues differently? This guy uses it solely for bringing ratings down. I'm sure alot of the national level teams do this as well.

Sounds like a bunch of savvy ole dudes to me. Maybe you should form a team of young hotshots that can take these guys on. It's kinda humorous someone complaining about a team of senior sandbaggers cleaning up in 4.0 USTA League Tennis. Used to be 4.5 and now as seniors they're 4.0 that's the natural aging process, man. Don't get hung up on ratings, maybe they're just good. Must be quite humbling!

JLyon 08-02-2012 05:24 AM

Is this the "Old Gang" by chance, these guys are some good players who were very good 4.5 players and back 10 yrs ago routinely went to Sectionals at the 4.5 level.

Govnor 08-02-2012 05:27 AM

Who wants to play when you have to lose x amount of games to have a good season? What a joke.

goober 08-02-2012 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennisDawg (Post 6770909)
Sounds like a bunch of savvy ole dudes to me. Maybe you should form a team of young hotshots that can take these guys on. It's kinda humorous someone complaining about a team of senior sandbaggers cleaning up in 4.0 USTA League Tennis. Used to be 4.5 and now as seniors they're 4.0 that's the natural aging process, man. Don't get hung up on ratings, maybe they're just good. Must be quite humbling!

Losing matches on purpose is not savvy, it is poor sportsmanship and outright cheating. I know teams that are exactly like this. They get bumped up after playoffs and they lose matches next season. They get early start ratings lowered and in the fall season they lose to weak teams on purpose and win a bunch of matches 3-2 that they should have won 5-0 rotating people losing in singles to keep their ratings down. I have zero respect for them.

cknobman 08-02-2012 07:39 AM

Holy cow I saw thread title and said "YES" and clicked. Then I read your thread and though "wow what a coincidence!!"

STEVE MILLER - Fort Worth USTA Mens league coordinator

BIGGEST SANDBAGGER in DFW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He has been working lineups and stats for years. I have actually played on one of his teams and he is very clever in structuring lineups and making sure the right people "loose" at the right times.

He pulled a doozy this year in mens 4.0 league. Had some college kid who played so-so in league but then in playoffs really cleaned house. We had our best singles player who went undefeated in regular season (and also won a 4.5 tournament in the consolation bracket) get taken to the woodshed in playoffs. The "old gang" singles kid literally blasted our guy off the court. At first we thought the kids was really good and just played well for "that match". Then we watched his other matches and noticed that it was no fluke. Researched the kid and found out he was a college tennis player!!!

He runs the site for the citys mens tennis leagues: http://www.fortworthmenstennis.com/

cknobman 08-02-2012 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennisDawg (Post 6770909)
Sounds like a bunch of savvy ole dudes to me. Maybe you should form a team of young hotshots that can take these guys on. It's kinda humorous someone complaining about a team of senior sandbaggers cleaning up in 4.0 USTA League Tennis. Used to be 4.5 and now as seniors they're 4.0 that's the natural aging process, man. Don't get hung up on ratings, maybe they're just good. Must be quite humbling!

It is not just a team of "old dudes" they have college players on their team.

Also this is the league coordinator for all of USTA mens tennis. He does this every year and for every league (Tri-Level, Combo, senior, etc...). Literally every team he puts together goes to sectionals EVERY YEAR.

Its a major conflict of interest and should be dealt with. You do realize any grievance or complaint you have has to go through your League coordinator? In my area it does at least, I know this first hand because I filed one once and had to go through him to file it.

TennisDawg 08-02-2012 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cknobman (Post 6771448)
It is not just a team of "old dudes" they have college players on their team.

Also this is the league coordinator for all of USTA mens tennis. He does this every year and for every league (Tri-Level, Combo, senior, etc...). Literally every team he puts together goes to sectionals EVERY YEAR.

Its a major conflict of interest and should be dealt with. You do realize any grievance or complaint you have has to go through your League coordinator? In my area it does at least, I know this first hand because I filed one once and had to go through him to file it.

Guess I should have held back a little before I posted. I read the first part of the post where it said senior players and thought it a little refreshing that for once seniors were described as former 4.5 and good 4.0 as opposed to how they are usually described on TT as decripit, weak kneed, hobbling around with long baggy shorts and chopping, slicing and pushing like there's no tomorrow. It seemed incredible that a group of seniors would be sandbagging against teams of much younger 4.0s. Now, I see it for what it is, collusion, trickery and decepetion by the league coordinator. Another reason why I steer clear of USTA events.

goober 08-02-2012 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cknobman (Post 6771448)
It is not just a team of "old dudes" they have college players on their team.

Also this is the league coordinator for all of USTA mens tennis. He does this every year and for every league (Tri-Level, Combo, senior, etc...). Literally every team he puts together goes to sectionals EVERY YEAR.

Its a major conflict of interest and should be dealt with. You do realize any grievance or complaint you have has to go through your League coordinator? In my area it does at least, I know this first hand because I filed one once and had to go through him to file it.

I am actually not surprised because basically coordinators are often long time league players. I am sure some of them figure they can get away with almost anything if they become the LC.

Govnor 08-02-2012 09:05 AM

Supposedly this guy gets consulting fees from the Chinese Badminton team too.

cknobman 08-02-2012 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 6771579)
I am actually not surprised because basically coordinators are often long time league players. I am sure some of them figure they can get away with almost anything if they become the LC.

Agreed and USTA should not allow this.

Really there is nothing wrong with him being a league player and I am sure there are many other captains/players besides him that sandbag in our area.

But it is very unethical for him to be in charge of so much. USTA should not allow him to be league coordinator and captain a team as it is too tempting for someone in that situation to "game" the system.

This league coordinator (who captains many teams in many divisions) is responsible for:
  • All mens league schedules. Times/dates/locations
  • League divisions. When there are too many teams signed up for one level they split into divisions (A,B,C) and those divisions dont play each other. Only division winners advance to playoffs where teams meet for first time. Huge hole here allowing LC to schedule his team in a "weak" division.
  • City season playoffs. Brackets/matchups/match times
  • Creating schedules for special leagues/tournaments. Combo/Tri-Level, etc...
  • Being liaison for all grievances/appeals between player and USTA

So there is a huge conflict of interest here and a temptation to cheat when you are team captain of the very leagues your in charge of organizing/putting together/managing.

JLyon 08-02-2012 10:01 AM

just curious if the kid is a college player why was he allowed to play, he has 3 yrs of league granted it was in MXD did he have a "M" rating until end of 2011?You would better contacting Todd Reed directly at TTA if you feel Steve Miller can not handle it professionally.

cknobman 08-02-2012 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLyon (Post 6771893)
You would better contacting Todd Reed directly at TTA if you feel Steve Miller can not handle it professionally.

Well that is the crux of the problem really. Why would Steve Miller handle a problem with this kid when it was Steve Millers team he played on. Steve is not going to do something to jeopardize his own team.

That is the conflict of interest. Anyways its all over and honestly it did not matter enough to our team to complain about it. I only posted here because I saw this thread.

Regardless of the sandbagging Steve Miller does a lot for tennis in our area and I dont know what would happen if he was not around to do it.

I went to sectionals with him once and it was nice and I have been to sectionals without him. What we try to do is avoid playing in the same division that he registers in.

Since he worked his rating back down to 4.0 and I worked mine up to 4.0 I cant avoid that for regular league but in Tri-Sectionals/Combo we usually just make a team in a lower division since he usually goes for the top division.

JLyon 08-02-2012 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cknobman (Post 6771914)
Well that is the crux of the problem really. Why would Steve Miller handle a problem with this kid when it was Steve Millers team he played on. Steve is not going to do something to jeopardize his own team.

That is the conflict of interest. Anyways its all over and honestly it did not matter enough to our team to complain about it. I only posted here because I saw this thread.

Regardless of the sandbagging Steve Miller does a lot for tennis in our area and I dont know what would happen if he was not around to do it.

I went to sectionals with him once and it was nice and I have been to sectionals without him. What we try to do is avoid playing in the same division that he registers in.

Since he worked his rating back down to 4.0 and I worked mine up to 4.0 I cant avoid that for regular league but in Tri-Sectionals/Combo we usually just make a team in a lower division since he usually goes for the top division.

Your right Steve is a nice guy and works but it does leave a bitter taste, played his team years ago when he was running a 4.5 team out of Hurst. The Old Gang ruled 4.5 until Southlake came along for a few years.

dizzlmcwizzl 08-02-2012 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cknobman (Post 6771885)
So there is a huge conflict of interest here and a temptation to cheat when you are team captain of the very leagues your in charge of organizing/putting together/managing.

Last season I had a league coordinator from a neighboring district call me to play on his team. I had never met him before but he said he had looked at detailed USTA ratings and identified the top players in other districts. He was calling the top guys from outside his district to play for him .. just enough to qualify for playoffs and sectionals.

I did not end up playing for him but it indicated to me just a little bit about how much these coordinators can massage the system.

kylebarendrick 08-02-2012 04:11 PM

Any captain caught instructing his players to lose in order to get/keep a lower rating should be permanently banned. Of course, who's going to do that if they are also the coordinator...

catfish 08-03-2012 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl (Post 6772430)
Last season I had a league coordinator from a neighboring district call me to play on his team. I had never met him before but he said he had looked at detailed USTA ratings and identified the top players in other districts. He was calling the top guys from outside his district to play for him .. just enough to qualify for playoffs and sectionals.

I did not end up playing for him but it indicated to me just a little bit about how much these coordinators can massage the system.

Detailed USTA rating information is only available to a Sectional League Administrator. Local and District/State Coordinators do not have access to rating information. Unfortunately, as in every other facet of life, there are self-important people who try to make themselves seem important to all others.

goober 08-03-2012 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catfish (Post 6776518)
Detailed USTA rating information is only available to a Sectional League Administrator. Local and District/State Coordinators do not have access to rating information. Unfortunately, as in every other facet of life, there are self-important people who try to make themselves seem important to all others.

Well you really don't need detailed ratings info to identify the top players in neighboring sections. All you have to to do is to have detailed look at their records and you can figure it out yourself pretty accurately. LC would also probably have the contact info on these players that others wouldn't have so he would be and advantage in that respect.

catfish 08-03-2012 12:21 PM

Quote:

goober;6776566]Well you really don't need detailed ratings info to identify the top players in neighboring sections. All you have to to do is to have detailed look at their records and you can figure it out yourself pretty accurately. LC would also probably have the contact info on these players that others wouldn't have so he would be and advantage in that respect.
Anyone can look at records in TennisLink and come to their own conclusions. LC's don't have contact information in neighboring sections. Anyone can find out contact information if they are industrious enough to take the time.


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