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-   -   practice match vids--are they 4.0? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=438717)

tonygao 09-04-2012 11:45 PM

practice match vids--are they 4.0?
 
hi guys,

what do you think these two guys? are they 4.0 by NTRP ranking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trhfY3bAi6w

UCSF2012 09-04-2012 11:48 PM

Mechanics aren't pretty, but their gameplay is awesome. Guy in black is within inches of painting the lines side to side. 4.0 is plausible.

TomT 09-05-2012 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonygao (Post 6865765)
hi guys,

what do you think these two guys? are they 4.0 by NTRP ranking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trhfY3bAi6w

A competitive match. Thanks for the video. I have no idea if they're 4.0.

I play in the (non-USTA) Tennis League Network. Players start out with either a previous USTA rating or self rate based on the NTRP guidelines, and then their ratings get adjusted according to results.

The one 4.0 guy who I played would, I think, have had no trouble with either of these guys. One of my new hitting partners says he's a former 4.5 (USTA, I'm supposing), and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't even let either one of these guys get into a point. He just has a much better serve than either, and much better stroke mechanics.

Based on my brief experience, but only in the TLN, I'd put the guys in the video at more or less 3.5, with at least a +- .3 margin of error.

As I said, that's just a guess from somebody (me) with very little recent experience, just getting back into tennis after not playing for about 40 years.

EDIT: Having watched the whole video now, I would say that if these guys were starting out in my local TLN, then they should probably rate themselves at, say, NTRP 3.25. Regarding USTA and how they do it, I have no idea.

They hit some nice shots, but also lots of really bad shots. No weapons, and even ~ 3.0 players (like me) would have no trouble with their serves.

tonygao 09-05-2012 12:38 AM

while you are at it, below is my latest match play. I am the guy in black.

whatever level you rate the above two guys, I am 0.5 lower than them for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2NEVGX9orc

TomT 09-05-2012 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonygao (Post 6865801)
while you are at it, below is my latest match play. I am the guy in black.

whatever level you rate the above two guys, I am 0.5 lower than them for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2NEVGX9orc

It doesn't look to me that you should be .5 lower than them. You hit some nice shots. I see a lot of potential.

Again, thanks for the videos.

EDIT: I should add that any of the players in the videos, including you, would, I think, beat me. But I also think it would be somewhat competitive. Only because my shots seem to me to have a bit more pace than what I'm seeing in your videos. But I miss a lot and don't move quite as well as I did 40 years ago. :)

dlesser13 09-05-2012 10:25 AM

Guys in first vid are 4.0. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. They both have pretty sound mechanics on their strokes and a definite feel for the game. May not seem like a lot of pace in the video, but a video always has that effect. No way is that 3.5.

tennisboi007 09-05-2012 10:29 AM

Yes 4.0 seems about right to me.

There are some things you guys could do better but overall it's solid.

Finally someone who knows how to rate themselves lol.

TomT 09-05-2012 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlesser13 (Post 6866741)
Guys in first vid are 4.0. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they are talking about. They both have pretty sound mechanics on their strokes and a definite feel for the game. May not seem like a lot of pace in the video, but a video always has that effect. No way is that 3.5.

We can be seeing the same thing and attributing ratings according to different standards. The guys in the first vid are playing at about a 3.5 level regarding my experience in my league. It's a relative thing. If you're USTA and you say that these guys are USTA 4.0, then I can't disagree ... having never played in a USTA league. But if you read my posts then you'll see that I specified that the league I'm in isn't USTA, though players start out with either previous USTA ratings or self rate according to NTRP guidelines and are then moved up or down according to their results.

So, apparently, starting with NTRP self rating guidelines, or a prior USTA rating, the ratings in TLN league play generally indicate a somewhat higher level of play than the corresponding ratings in USTA league play ... even though both are, presumably, initially based on NTRP guidelines.

But of course this doesn't take into account sandbaggers or late bumps, or ... whatever.

TomT 09-05-2012 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennisboi007 (Post 6866750)
Yes 4.0 seems about right to me.

There are some things you guys could do better but overall it's solid.

Finally someone who knows how to rate themselves lol.

I respectfully disagree. I think that 4.0 is a bit high. But of course I could be wrong. For example, I thought I could beat the (NTRP-based) 4.0 guy in my local TLN league until I actually played him.

I think we need more videos from the same perspective. Good videos so far. More please.

Perhaps you will be assessed as legitimate 4.0ers by all. :)

escii_35 09-05-2012 12:02 PM

Guy in black/blue is an EZ 4.0 singles player. Could sandbag at 3.5 dubs without too much issue during the regular season then play singles for playoffs/sectionals.

Reminds me of how I play (4.0C usta) , goes for lines/redirection, fearless approaches not so good net/overhead game. Lazy footwork -> lazy results.

Would like to see him in a vid against someone pushing him around.

Gotta go 3.5 for the guy in white.

TomT 09-05-2012 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by escii_35 (Post 6867018)
Guy in black/blue is an EZ 4.0 singles player. Could sandbag at 3.5 dubs without too much issue during the regular season then play singles for playoffs/sectionals.

Reminds me of how I play (4.0C usta) , goes for lines/redirection, fearless approaches not so good net/overhead game. Lazy footwork -> lazy results.

Would like to see him in a vid against someone pushing him around.

Gotta go 3.5 for the guy in white.

Ok, we partially agree. But doesn't lazy footwork --> lazy results = lower rating? I mean, I think that they (at least the black/blue guy) are potentially 4.0 players. But that isn't what I saw in the video. What I saw in the video was, according to my current understanding of NTRP ratings, and my current limited experience, basically a 3.5 (or lower) match.

SuperJimmy 09-05-2012 12:17 PM

I would say 4.0 is a fair rating. They are capable of hitting shots that I think give a lot of 3.5s trouble. Their strokes might not look too pretty, but I think would get the job done.

People have to remember that at any given rating level there is a wide range of skills. Someone being a legit 4.0 doesn't mean they have to be better than the guy playing singles #2 on your USTA team. It also doesn't mean they have to be 'better' than the ultra strong 3.5 that somehow didn't get bumped up when they should have been.

Tony: I am curious as to why you think you are for sure 0.5 lower than them? I'm assuming you've played them and they beat you easily? What I noticed in your video, is that your opponent is giving you pace and almost ball-machine like balls where everything is predictable...and that makes your shots easier to hit. The guys in the first video have more angles and junk balls which probably gives you more trouble.

bhallic24 09-05-2012 12:18 PM

ya the guy in black is a 4.0. But both those guys have ugly ugly strokes. The second video posted, that guy in black is like a 3.5-4.0. Great looking strokes but he'll be a 4.0 if he gets rid of his lollipop serve.

TomT 09-05-2012 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperJimmy (Post 6867064)
People have to remember that at any given rating level there is a wide range of skills.

Good point. An honestly rated 4.0 player might play at a level somewhat below that or somewhat above that on any given day.

The guys in the vids have decent strokes. But, imo, they're only comparable to the strokes of the 3.5 (TLN not USTA, but still NTRP based) players that I've played, which I must say aren't even as good as my strokes. The difference there is primarily mobility. Now the 4.0 and 4.5 guys I've hit with ... well their strokes are noticably more solid and hit with more pace than what I saw in the videos. And I have to admit that the 4.5 guy's strokes are, in a certain sense, better than mine (though he has difficulty with certain of my shots). But I haven't played the 4.5 guy in league competition. The 4.0 guy , who I have played in league competition, just does what he has to do in order to win. He's just nice and steady ... more so than the guys in the videos ... and he wears me out.
I hit winners against him, but I also make lots of errors. This is not to say that the guys in the videos couldn't do the same thing, that is, beat me badly, just that from their videos they don't seem as good as the 4.0 guy I've played, and are more comparable to the 3.5 guys I've played.

LeeD 09-05-2012 02:44 PM

Both can play 4.0, early exits.
Weak hitting, slow moving, but have some strategy and some strokes.

goober 09-05-2012 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT (Post 6865811)
It doesn't look to me that you should be .5 lower than them. You hit some nice shots. I see a lot of potential.

Again, thanks for the videos.

EDIT: I should add that any of the players in the videos, including you, would, I think, beat me. But I also think it would be somewhat competitive. Only because my shots seem to me to have a bit more pace than what I'm seeing in your videos. But I miss a lot and don't move quite as well as I did 40 years ago. :)

He probably thinks he is .5 lower because he knows his actual results against them? BTW you should video yourself sometime in a competitive match. Your shots look a lot slower on video than you think they do in real life. I would bet that as a 60+ year old 3.0 player, the pace of your shots would be even slower than the guys in the video and your movement even slower.

LeeD 09-05-2012 03:27 PM

Tony, what's up with your serves?
Your groundies have improved.
Your balance has improved.
Your placements has improved.
But what's with your serve? Regressed back to your very first vid. Why the special lack of effort on your serves?

Headshotterer 09-05-2012 05:51 PM

On my standards and interpretation, these people are not 4.0. 4.0 would be around a lower competition junior level.

fightfan 09-05-2012 06:14 PM

There is a big difference between a low 4.0 and a high 4.0. I know I am a 4.0 as I've been computer-rated at that level for 3 years with a mediocre record. I have also seen myself on video (ack!!), and IMHO, I have no doubt whatsoever that everyone in those vids can play 4.0. They all show consistency, direction on their shots, and strategy. It's pretty evident if you watch where they are, where they hit the ball, and where they move to prior to their opponent's contact with the ball. Maybe at high 4.0 you need to crush the ball with exquisite technique, but that's certainly not the case at low 4.0.

That being said, I really have no idea where along the 4.0 scale all these players would be. If they make great in-match adjustments, find and target opponent's weaknesses, play great under pressure, etc., maybe they'd be high 4.0s. If none of that is true, maybe they play low 4.0s. Either way, I'd be really shocked if any of them lost to a "typical" 3.5, not a sandbagging 3.5 that is soon to be bumped.

That's just my opinion that I'm throwing out there as a "vote" based on what I've personally observed. I don't doubt at all that different geographies or different leagues might have different "standards" of NTRP.

TomT 09-05-2012 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 6867905)
He probably thinks he is .5 lower because he knows his actual results against them?

Yes that makes sense. Maybe Tony will tell us. As I watch Tony's video again ... he does make some nice shots. After some more consideration, (and being now sober) I agree with the assessment that the other two guys are somewhere in the 4.0 range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 6867905)
BTW you should video yourself sometime in a competitive match.

I did that a few months ago with a cheapo camera. It was very embarrassing. I was quite shocked at how bad I looked. :oops: Just got a new Sony camera. Next time I hit I'll get some vids if I can find somebody to do the shoot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 6867905)
Your shots look a lot slower on video than you think they do in real life.

Yeah, it was really bad. I was playing a guy about 25 years younger who, in my view, looked even worse. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 6867905)
I would bet that as a 60+ year old 3.0 player, the pace of your shots would be even slower than the guys in the video and your movement even slower.

Yeah, I'm a full point (at least) below all the guys in the videos. If I could just figure out how to get people to hit the ball within, say, 5 ft of me on every shot, then (maybe) I'd have a chance. :)


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