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jaybear1909 09-10-2012 08:19 PM

Mixed Doubles Strats?
 
I haven't really looked at mixed from a competitive viewpoint, but have been playing it a lot more recently and am really enjoying it. I'm playing 4.0 this season with my cousin and was wondering about some decent strategies. I'm a 4.0 Singles/Men's doubles player (3.5 on a bad day, 4.5 on a good one) and my partner is a 3.5-4.0 Singles player. She is very consistent, but lacks power. She's got a really good lob too. I'm about the opposite; I tend to make mistakes, but can force errors with pace.

My main concern is holding her serve. The first one can get up to about 50 mph, but her second serve is just getting the ball in. Really not sure how this will hold up at 4.0. I'm going to try to get her to just hit a high % of first serves, with placement.

For my serve I'm just going to try and mix up the spins to the girl, and try to get a few free points against the guy. I normally hold serve pretty easily unless I just zone out.

What strategies do you 8.0 mixed players utilize?

Also torn about what side to put her on. She's a lefty and I'm a righty, but I love playing ad side. I do much better under pressure and all the pressure points are on that side. Her backhand and forehand are pretty equal, forehand just has more top. Guess we're just going to have to see which side works best for us.

VeeSe 09-10-2012 08:26 PM

Be active at the net on her serve and you should be in a decent place. Establish the poaching early so that they always feel pressure on their returns. Find ways to interject yourself into the point when it's a girl-girl rally, usually by picking the right time to poach across the net. Doing this will really help her hold serve.

It's harder to force errors with pace in doubles because you don't force movement a lot of the time, and pace shouldn't bother 4.0's that much, but it will probably get you a fair amount of points in some matches. More than anything, focus on being consistent and moving in to the net off a nice, deep ball. It doesn't have to have pace, it just has to be deep with a little bit of topspin and you are set to come in.

tennis tom 09-10-2012 09:54 PM

Do USTA rules allow cousins to play m'xed together? Somehow it just doesn't seem right, kinda like an abomination. Are you'll playing in Kentucky? Well good luck--but no playin' "I" formation, alright?

corbind 09-10-2012 11:08 PM

Hmmm, how is it that you enjoy playing mixed? I always feel like a Jekyl-and-Hyde thing going on. I always feel I can hit the ball hard to the guy and take a lot of pace off to the girl. Same with serves. It's just a strange way to play tennis.

Social mixed? Sure, but to me that means just hitting less pace to everyone to keep it nice. That is cool playing with your cousin though.

chatt_town 09-10-2012 11:20 PM

Based on what you are saying here. I would put her in the deuce court(although me and my wife play the other way...:)) I've never like two backhands in the middle of the court. I know when I see that I have a field day. Serves, lobs, vollies all go through the middle of the court. I would try to talk her into taking a lot off that first serve and get it in preferably to the middle of the court and you can cut more off if you are hanging towards the middle. I'd also have her lob them to death assuming the guy is patroling the net and cracking overheads from no man's land. When she does lob again...she needs to lob either over the backhand side or most of the time over the woman's head so you don't eat one at the net. If the woman has some weight issues are just doesn't move her feet. I'd serve everything wide to her and isolate her from as much as you can from the man so you can work her over.


Quote:

Originally Posted by jaybear1909 (Post 6890408)
I haven't really looked at mixed from a competitive viewpoint, but have been playing it a lot more recently and am really enjoying it. I'm playing 4.0 this season with my cousin and was wondering about some decent strategies. I'm a 4.0 Singles/Men's doubles player (3.5 on a bad day, 4.5 on a good one) and my partner is a 3.5-4.0 Singles player. She is very consistent, but lacks power. She's got a really good lob too. I'm about the opposite; I tend to make mistakes, but can force errors with pace.

My main concern is holding her serve. The first one can get up to about 50 mph, but her second serve is just getting the ball in. Really not sure how this will hold up at 4.0. I'm going to try to get her to just hit a high % of first serves, with placement.

For my serve I'm just going to try and mix up the spins to the girl, and try to get a few free points against the guy. I normally hold serve pretty easily unless I just zone out.

What strategies do you 8.0 mixed players utilize?

Also torn about what side to put her on. She's a lefty and I'm a righty, but I love playing ad side. I do much better under pressure and all the pressure points are on that side. Her backhand and forehand are pretty equal, forehand just has more top. Guess we're just going to have to see which side works best for us.


chatt_town 09-10-2012 11:22 PM

Women just don't know about the "I" formation right?<wink> should we tell them? nahhhhhhh...lol


Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis tom (Post 6890637)
Do USTA rules allow cousins to play m'xed together? Somehow it just doesn't seem right, kinda like an abomination. Are you'll playing in Kentucky? Well good luck--but no playin' "I" formation, alright?


jaybear1909 09-11-2012 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corbind (Post 6890796)
Hmmm, how is it that you enjoy playing mixed? I always feel like a Jekyl-and-Hyde thing going on. I always feel I can hit the ball hard to the guy and take a lot of pace off to the girl. Same with serves. It's just a strange way to play tennis.

Social mixed? Sure, but to me that means just hitting less pace to everyone to keep it nice. That is cool playing with your cousin though.

Just another layer of the game in my opinion. I just like tennis. I've played many girls that can handle pace, and even a few that can dish it out.

Granted, it is in my head a little bit when I have an open shot down the line/overhead and the girl is at the net. A couple matches ago I mistimed the ball and it went straight at the lady's chest. Hit her racket though and she didn't care one bit about it.

I think people that play mixed just have to accept that the weaker player will get picked on (whether it be guy or girl, I've seen both on multiple occasions). Just a little harder to pick on that player when it's the girl.

tennis tom 09-11-2012 08:49 AM

***TENNIS KNOWLEDGE ALERT*** FYI, the USO mixed-doubles final is being replayed on the tennis channel right now Peschke/Matowski vs Makarova/Soares and one of the broads is a lefty and they have her on the deuce side. It's on the Tennis Channel and it says it's gonna' be repeated Wed 8-10 pm (I'm in Kali). I'll try to pay attention and give you some tips, as soon as I wake up and get the Keurig and the Pastry Streudel goin'.

Cindysphinx 09-11-2012 10:38 AM

I play 8.0 mixed (although not well!), so here are some ideas.

First, I think you should play ad, but not for the reasons you state. Your overhead should be stronger than hers, so you can cover 75% of the court with your overhead smash if you are in the ad court. If you are in deuce, the two of you may collide on overheads up the middle.

Second, when she is serving, please help her. That means faking, poaching, whatever it takes. Don't let the opponents get into a groove whereby they isolate her. I cannot sustain more than a few decent shots against the male opponent, so if my partner just stands there waiting for a sitter, I will never hold.

If her leftie BH volley is weak, learn to play Aussie so she lines up in the ad court every time, with her FH in the middle.

Finally, be alert for backward creep. Don't let her backpedal from the net. She should stay right up there so that she is less of a target. If she lobs well, she can lob the net player and run to the net like her hair is on fire.

NTRPolice 09-11-2012 04:52 PM

She is not a 4.0 if her first serve is going 50 mph. I'm pretty sure my partner's second serves go about 60 and her (good) first serves go about 80. She's a 4.0 and im comfortable at net with her serving for the most part.

Power is where its at for 4.0 and 8.0 combos. Somewhere between 3.5 and 4.0 there is an area where people no longer make mistakes and you're required to hit winners to end points. In doubles, this is especially evident. If I see a player who "just gets it back into play" you can bet im going to have a field day at net. The probably wont pass me and even if they do its probably not going to be a winner. If this type of player is spotted (you can tell in the warmup) I would tell my my partner to stay 1up 1back permanently and whoever is at net makes most of the points. No point in bringing both players up because there is going to be a lot of moonballing.

Bottom tier 4.0's are stuck in the "dont make errors" game.
Top tier 4.0's dont make ridiculous errors and are learning to transition to offense.

It sounds like your partner isnt a top tier 4.0 and is therefore a huge risk when playing mixed. Whenever you play mixed it is all about the female player. People like to have a "strong guy" with a "solid girl" but I like the opposite. I firmly believe that a "strong girl" combined with a "solid guy" is a superior combination (my opinion).


About the whole ad/deuce side thing...

TBH, it doesnt matter who if you have two forehands in the middle or two forehands on the lines when you have a R/L combo. I really think that it's a myth for it to be "better" to have both forehands in the middle. There are a lot of reasons why this cant be true but im not going into them here.

The more solid player needs to play the Ad side in a normal match. If it's no Ad scoring, then I suppose it doesnt matter as much. In an Ad scoring game, the player on the Ad side both wins and loses the game with their return.

The more solid player needs to play Ad. Period.

If you're both "the same level" or w/e then I guess its personal preference. It's really dumb to put the worst player on the Ad side and the "big forehand" on the deuce side unless you like to play a lot of deuces in a single game.

As for serves...

I serve the guy big and I risk doubles to protect my partner at net. When I serve the girl, I just give her two solid second serves to reduce double faults since her return probably wont punish my partner at net. I also come in on the girl most of the time and force her to do something with her return.

jaybear1909 09-11-2012 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice (Post 6893192)
She is not a 4.0 if her first serve is going 50 mph. I'm pretty sure my partner's second serves go about 60 and her (good) first serves go about 80. She's a 4.0 and im comfortable at net with her serving for the most part.

Power is where its at for 4.0 and 8.0 combos. Somewhere between 3.5 and 4.0 there is an area where people no longer make mistakes and you're required to hit winners to end points. In doubles, this is especially evident. If I see a player who "just gets it back into play" you can bet im going to have a field day at net. The probably wont pass me and even if they do its probably not going to be a winner. If this type of player is spotted (you can tell in the warmup) I would tell my my partner to stay 1up 1back permanently and whoever is at net makes most of the points. No point in bringing both players up because there is going to be a lot of moonballing.

Bottom tier 4.0's are stuck in the "dont make errors" game.
Top tier 4.0's dont make ridiculous errors and are learning to transition to offense.

It sounds like your partner isnt a top tier 4.0 and is therefore a huge risk when playing mixed. Whenever you play mixed it is all about the female player. People like to have a "strong guy" with a "solid girl" but I like the opposite. I firmly believe that a "strong girl" combined with a "solid guy" is a superior combination (my opinion).


About the whole ad/deuce side thing...

TBH, it doesnt matter who if you have two forehands in the middle or two forehands on the lines when you have a R/L combo. I really think that it's a myth for it to be "better" to have both forehands in the middle. There are a lot of reasons why this cant be true but im not going into them here.

The more solid player needs to play the Ad side in a normal match. If it's no Ad scoring, then I suppose it doesnt matter as much. In an Ad scoring game, the player on the Ad side both wins and loses the game with their return.

The more solid player needs to play Ad. Period.

If you're both "the same level" or w/e then I guess its personal preference. It's really dumb to put the worst player on the Ad side and the "big forehand" on the deuce side unless you like to play a lot of deuces in a single game.

As for serves...

I serve the guy big and I risk doubles to protect my partner at net. When I serve the girl, I just give her two solid second serves to reduce double faults since her return probably wont punish my partner at net. I also come in on the girl most of the time and force her to do something with her return.


While I agree with most of your post, I don't agree with the part in bold. I think there's way too much depth in this sport to deny someone 4.0 capabilities because they don't serve fast enough. Her consistency makes up for her lack of power. I haven't met many 4.0 players that are extremely consistent and have a lot of power. Also seen 4.0 guys hitting "safe" second serves (meaning slow), but being quick enough to cover most offensive returns. I based her rating on her singles game as well. I know doubles is a totally different beast.

Now I do regularly hit with a guy that's 5.0+, and he can consistently hit hard/deep/topspin etc, whenever he wants, but has a more spin friendly, less pace type serve (80-90 mph, higher when he really goes for it). I also hit with a 3.5-4.0 player that can serve bombs (we both want to get his serve clocked) but I believe it's safe to say he can hit in the high 110s to low 120s. He lacks consistency in his ground game though.

Thank you for the post though. I found it very constructive.

jaybear1909 09-11-2012 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis tom (Post 6891810)
***TENNIS KNOWLEDGE ALERT*** FYI, the USO mixed-doubles final is being replayed on the tennis channel right now Peschke/Matowski vs Makarova/Soares and one of the broads is a lefty and they have her on the deuce side. It's on the Tennis Channel and it says it's gonna' be repeated Wed 8-10 pm (I'm in Kali). I'll try to pay attention and give you some tips, as soon as I wake up and get the Keurig and the Pastry Streudel goin'.

Very interesting. Thanks for the post. I actually watched a little of that match but didn't pay attention to the details. I'll be checking that out.

escii_35 09-11-2012 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice (Post 6893192)



It sounds like your partner isnt a top tier 4.0 and is therefore a huge risk when playing mixed. Whenever you play mixed it is all about the female player. People like to have a "strong guy" with a "solid girl" but I like the opposite. I firmly believe that a "strong girl" combined with a "solid guy" is a superior combination (my opinion).


Me too. I find it makes it easier to divide the court with a "strong pard". I eat up 60% of the base line. She takes any volleys in the middle and mauls the floaty stuff.



4.0 female singles players in mxd are really rare. I've seen a few 3.5's but never a 4.0.

Cindysphinx 09-12-2012 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by escii_35 (Post 6894020)


4.0 female singles players in mxd are really rare. I've seen a few 3.5's but never a 4.0.

Are there 4.0 singles players in mixed? Of course. Many do very well.

What they have is the ability to execute from the baseline. If her partner is even a little active at net, eventually she can tease out a defensive ball. 4.0 singles players are often very good at placing their passing shots. They may be below level on their volleys, but they can put away a sitter. Where they struggle is their volley transition game, but you can go a long way in 8.0 mixed without a volley transition game.

As far as a 4.0 woman having a slow or attackable serve . . . so what? One of my doubles partners has a very basic serve, but she wins a lot. This is because she absorbs pace incredibly well and likes to come to net. The male opponent tries to blast through her, but she eats up the pace until they miss.

What the male opponent never seems to figure out is that she will miss a paceless volley, and she cannot handle a lob over her partner.

So, OP. Remember your topspin lob if the opposing woman comes to net, and remember that pace isn't the answer to all problems on a tennis court.

spot 09-12-2012 05:13 AM

Quote:

She is not a 4.0 if her first serve is going 50 mph.
What on earth are you talking about? There are plenty of 4.0 women who's first serve doesn't touch 50MPH. You are the 3.0 player who thinks that he hits 110 out wide so I guess I guess it makes sense you grossly overestimate the speed of other people's serves as well. For women who didn't grow up playing a sport that involved throwing a ball the serve is a very difficult shot to learn where the other groundstrokes can come much more naturally.

NTRPolice 09-12-2012 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaybear1909 (Post 6893611)
While I agree with most of your post, I don't agree with the part in bold. I think there's way too much depth in this sport to deny someone 4.0 capabilities because they don't serve fast enough. Her consistency makes up for her lack of power. I haven't met many 4.0 players that are extremely consistent and have a lot of power. Also seen 4.0 guys hitting "safe" second serves (meaning slow), but being quick enough to cover most offensive returns. I based her rating on her singles game as well. I know doubles is a totally different beast.

Now I do regularly hit with a guy that's 5.0+, and he can consistently hit hard/deep/topspin etc, whenever he wants, but has a more spin friendly, less pace type serve (80-90 mph, higher when he really goes for it). I also hit with a 3.5-4.0 player that can serve bombs (we both want to get his serve clocked) but I believe it's safe to say he can hit in the high 110s to low 120s. He lacks consistency in his ground game though.

Thank you for the post though. I found it very constructive.

The problem is that 50 MPH is just too slow. We're also talking 8.0 and potentially 9.0 here, not 7.0 or 6.5. In 8.0, you may go up against a 3.5 girl and a 4.5 guy. What do you think a 4.5 guy is going to do to a 50 mph first serve? What do you think a 5.0 guy is going to do to that serve?

A 50 mph serve can be hit with a forehand no matter where it lands in the box so you cant realistically expect them to play a backhand. Also, at this average level of 4.0, everyone should have a topspin backhand or a "powerful slice" at the least.

A 50 mph serve wont have any movement on it at all. The racket head speed is just too low to put any useful amount of spin on it. The ball wont have any kick unless it clears like 3x the height of the net... which isnt exactly a high percentage serve.

A 4.0 should have two serves already, or one very solid serve they can use twice. If she was playing 7.0 senior+ she can get away with it. In the 8.0 arena that is a huge risk. Her first serve should be going at least 70 (flat) and I know its possible even for a senior lady to hit that. 70+ with spin as a 4.0 girl would be a great serve, but should be able to hit 70 flat at least for a first.

I'm just trying to put this into perspective. 8.0 and doubles. 50 MPH. Sounds dangerous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spot (Post 6894295)
What on earth are you talking about? There are plenty of 4.0 women who's first serve doesn't touch 50MPH. You are the 3.0 player who thinks that he hits 110 out wide so I guess I guess it makes sense you grossly overestimate the speed of other people's serves as well. For women who didn't grow up playing a sport that involved throwing a ball the serve is a very difficult shot to learn where the other groundstrokes can come much more naturally.

You projecting?

50 mph as a first serve is extremely slow especially for MIXED DOUBLES at the 8.0 level or higher.

Not a 4.0 mixed doubles player who is trying to play 8.0.

Say w/e you want about my claims, but I assure you, when I post my YER benchmark video ill be sure to put some serves in there for all you haters. You guys just cant seem to get over the fact that someone who is lower NTRP can possibly be better than you or know what they're talking about. I should have just self rated 4.5 because my serve becomes much faster apparently.

Cindysphinx 09-12-2012 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice (Post 6894342)
The problem is that 50 MPH is just too slow. We're also talking 8.0 and potentially 9.0 here, not 7.0 or 6.5. In 8.0, you may go up against a 3.5 girl and a 4.5 guy. What do you think a 4.5 guy is going to do to a 50 mph first serve? What do you think a 5.0 guy is going to do to that serve?

I have never encountered a 5.0 guy playing 8.0 mixed. Here, a 5.0/3.0 pairing is against the rules. I won't comment on 9.0 because I have never played at that level and only know one 4.0 woman who does.

Anyway, I can tell you what 4.5 guys do to the slow serve of the woman. Sometimes they crack it at the guy at net. Sometimes they pass him. Sometimes they drop shot. Mostly, they try to crush it crosscourt. If the female server can block it back, it's game on. If not, she loses the point and will need to make it up against the opposing female, or else.

Quote:

A 50 mph serve wont have any movement on it at all. The racket head speed is just too low to put any useful amount of spin on it. The ball wont have any kick unless it clears like 3x the height of the net... which isnt exactly a high percentage serve.
Well, yeah. A weak serve is a weak serve, and we all know what a weak serve looks like.

What you seem to be missing is that a woman can be 4.0 and do quite nicely in 8.0 mixed despite a weak serve. See, women with weak serves are aware of this. They have learned to compensate with other elements of their game.

Quote:

A 4.0 should have two serves already, or one very solid serve they can use twice. If she was playing 7.0 senior+ she can get away with it. In the 8.0 arena that is a huge risk. Her first serve should be going at least 70 (flat) and I know its possible even for a senior lady to hit that. 70+ with spin as a 4.0 girl would be a great serve, but should be able to hit 70 flat at least for a first.
4.0 women should have "two serves"?

Well, I guess that depends on your definition of "two serves". Most 4.0 women I know (and I would suggest I know way more 4.0 women than you do) have a hard/faster serve they use for their first serve. Then they use a slower, more conservative serve for the second. A few can hit a kick or slice for the second serve, but that is a minority of 4.0 women IME.

As for whether a 4.0 woman is hitting 70 mph, I have no idea (and I doubt you know either). I have never clocked my own serve, and I spend no mental energy wondering how fast it goes. Instead, I try to generate spin and placement and variety (I can serve flat, slice and topspin) more than pace.

There are two reasons for this. First, a lot of people love pace and are quite used to dealing with more pace than I can generate. Second, a lot of opponents struggle with spin and will hit a somewhat more defensive return, which allows me to get into the rally.

I know from your prior posts that serve speed is very important to you, but judging the effectiveness of a 4.0 woman's serve based largely on a radar gun will cause you to underestimate her ability to compete at 8.0 mixed.

Quote:

I'm just trying to put this into perspective. 8.0 and doubles. 50 MPH. Sounds dangerous.
Nah, not "dangerous." If you are looking for an adjective, I would go with "typical."

spot 09-12-2012 06:14 AM

NTRPolice- I simply think that you are talking out of your ***. You are a 3.0 player who evidently has not faced a ton of 4.0 women. there are lots of 4.0 women with tremendously weak serves. Sure there are 4.0 women with good serves but that is not at all a consistent thing. They can do very well at mixed simply because they are used to blocking back pace when it is hit hard at them. A 50 MPH serve can still be effective if it is placed effectively and they have a partner who is active at the net. While a 50 MPH serve sounds slow many groundstrokes are that speed and it is simply not a sure end to the point.

NTRPolice 09-12-2012 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 6894373)
I have never encountered a 5.0 guy playing 8.0 mixed. Here, a 5.0/3.0 pairing is against the rules.

What you seem to be missing is that a woman can be 4.0 and do quite nicely in 8.0 mixed despite a weak serve. See, women with weak serves are aware of this. They have learned to compensate with other elements of their game.

It is here too, but as a 4.0, its possible for her to play 9.0 and she could be up against a 5.0 guy.

Right, but every point starts with a serve. You dont need to serve bullets, but you cant serve ducks either.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 6894373)
4.0 women should have "two serves"?

Yes, as you mentioned, two distinct serves, a first and second. Or she should have two good serves she can use twice. A 50 mph first serve disqualifies her from that almost instantly because a 50 mph "spin" serve wont have any movement on it at all and its certainly not going to bounce high either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 6894373)
I know from your prior posts that serve speed is very important to you, but judging the effectiveness of a 4.0 woman's serve based largely on a radar gun will cause you to underestimate her ability to compete at 8.0 mixed.

Serve speed indicates to me a persons physical potential. To serve 80 with good spin you need to be able to hit over 100 flat, for example. The racket head speed required for both is the same, it's just that the ball is struck differently.

It's not about the raw speed really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spot (Post 6894399)
NTRPolice- I simply think that you are talking out of your ***. You are a 3.0 player who evidently has not faced a ton of 4.0 women. there are lots of 4.0 women with tremendously weak serves. Sure there are 4.0 women with good serves but that is not at all a consistent thing. They can do very well at mixed simply because they are used to blocking back pace when it is hit hard at them. A 50 MPH serve can still be effective if it is placed effectively and they have a partner who is active at the net. While a 50 MPH serve sounds slow many groundstrokes are that speed and it is simply not a sure end to the point.

You said it yourself. This serve is going the same speed as a ground stroke.

Except that:

1) I know where this "ground stroke" is going to land unlike in a potential rally because this "ground stroke" has to land inside the service box to start the point.
2) In a ground stroke rally im behind the baseline and not standing well inside of it like I would be when I receive this serve.
3) Unless this "ground stroke" serve is super low like a slice then I can put it away almost immediately, or make a strong offensive shot setting up a put away.
4) Any 4.0 that I know, man or woman can put away a ball that lands inside the service box provided its not a low volley exchange. You cant possibly tell me this ball is as low as a slice or a proper volley.
5) I can run around this ball and hit a forehand every single time unlike in a legit backhand to backhand baseline exchange.


That should clue you in a little.

I assume the 4.0 in question isnt a super senior honorary 4.0 who took up tennis when she was 60. If she's not that, she really has no excuse to be serving that slow as a first serve. None.

tennisjon 09-12-2012 07:12 AM

I am a 4.5 who plays 8.0 and I also coach college tennis. I have found that in general, you are best off with the better player on the ad side of the court since most game points are played on that side. I am also in favor of having forehands in the middle of the court. Most people are best at hitting their weaker side cross court as opposed to inside out on returns.

As for what to do with the weaker serve. I might start the point on her serve with both players back at the baseline. They will try to return the serve to her. Have her lob the ball back cross court and then you can sneak into the net.

Also, might want to try playing aussie on the deuce side for the lefty (ad for the righty). It will give her a forehand and most likely the weaker of the two players.


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