Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Former Pro Player Talk (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Lew Hoad-A discussion on his career (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=440348)

pc1 09-17-2012 07:49 AM

Lew Hoad-A discussion on his career
 
Guys obviously there are a huge (ahem) difference of opinion on what to make of the Great Lew Hoad. I'm of the opinion that Lew Hoad is one of the great players and perhaps the most talented player of all time, with the key word perhaps here because others can be included in the discussion. Please discuss.

And yes I am doing this because of the disagreement but also because I do believe Hoad should be discussed here because at the very worst he is an interesting and super fascinating figure in the history of tennis. He had been called the GOAT to vastly overrated. Many feel at his best he was unbeatable but because of his style he could also lose to anyone when he was somewhat off.

BobbyOne 09-17-2012 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 6904253)
Guys obviously there are a huge (ahem) difference of opinion on what to make of the Great Lew Hoad. I'm of the opinion that Lew Hoad is one of the great players and perhaps the most talented player of all time, with the key word perhaps here because others can be included in the discussion. Please discuss.

And yes I am doing this because of the disagreement but also because I do believe Hoad should be discussed here because at the very worst he is an interesting and super fascinating figure in the history of tennis. He had been called the GOAT to vastly overrated. Many feel at his best he was unbeatable but because of his style he could also lose to anyone when he was somewhat off.

I believe that Hoad, Gonzalez and Laver were the strongest ever when "on".

Hoad was the most inconsistent of the three. A good example could be that he played very well against Gonzalez in the 1959 world series but lost several matches to Cooper and Anderson while Gonzalez beat them in every match.

Dan Lobb 09-17-2012 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne (Post 6904291)
I believe that Hoad, Gonzalez and Laver were the strongest ever when "on".

Hoad was the most inconsistent of the three. A good example could be that he played very well against Gonzalez in the 1959 world series but lost several matches to Cooper and Anderson while Gonzalez beat them in every match.

Here we disagree. Hoad beat all three opponents on the 1959 American tour, which was not a true round-robin and was regarded as a head to head by Gonzales himself, his only loss in such a tour.
Hoad's record in the Ampol World Championship was 34 to 13, first place.

urban 09-17-2012 08:57 AM

Can someone give the known numbers of Hoad for 1959, not selective results but all tournaments played plus the main hth tours? From what i have read in other threads, he did well considering the strong opposition, but wasn't dominant. It seems, that all the top contenders in 1959, Gonzalez, Hoad, Rosewall and even Sedgman were pretty close, and indeed the contemporary rankings by Kramer, Anderson and other promoters and players were anything but unanimous. If i am right, then Hoad ranked from 1 to 4, regarding the rankings, and mostly Gonzalez was ranked Nr. 1.

BobbyOne 09-17-2012 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb (Post 6904367)
Here we disagree. Hoad beat all three opponents on the 1959 American tour, which was not a true round-robin and was regarded as a head to head by Gonzales himself, his only loss in such a tour.
Hoad's record in the Ampol World Championship was 34 to 13, first place.

You forgot that Hoad lost the American tour to Gonzalez.

We not only disagree HERE ! We disagree almost in all matters!

An exception could be that we agree that Rosewall was stronger than Peter Cawthorn, Ray Keldie and Vince Spadea....

pc1 09-17-2012 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urban (Post 6904369)
Can someone give the known numbers of Hoad for 1959, not selective results but all tournaments played plus the main hth tours? From what i have read in other threads, he did well considering the strong opposition, but wasn't dominant. It seems, that all the top contenders in 1959, Gonzalez, Hoad, Rosewall and even Sedgman were pretty close, and indeed the contemporary rankings by Kramer, Anderson and other promoters and players were anything but unanimous. If i am right, then Hoad ranked from 1 to 4, regarding the rankings, and mostly Gonzalez was ranked Nr. 1.

I gave all the tournaments I could see from McCauley's book that I could see that Hoad participated in.

BobbyOne 09-17-2012 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urban (Post 6904369)
Can someone give the known numbers of Hoad for 1959, not selective results but all tournaments played plus the main hth tours? From what i have read in other threads, he did well considering the strong opposition, but wasn't dominant. It seems, that all the top contenders in 1959, Gonzalez, Hoad, Rosewall and even Sedgman were pretty close, and indeed the contemporary rankings by Kramer, Anderson and other promoters and players were anything but unanimous. If i am right, then Hoad ranked from 1 to 4, regarding the rankings, and mostly Gonzalez was ranked Nr. 1.

I think that Joe McCauley has given almost all events. An exception are those few (4 man) tournaments of (probably) July when Rosewall beat Gonzalez twice.

I guess that Dan is the first and only man who ranked Hoad first for 1959...

pc1 09-17-2012 09:54 AM

Some information on Hoad. Yes I know it's wikipedia but it seems to be okay.

Incidentally Vainqueurs has Hoad winning 42 tournaments in his career. The total is probably higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Hoad

Hoad was obviously a great physical specimen who could inspire awe with his almost inhuman shotmaking. Was his best better than anyone else? Possibly but we cannot ever prove that. However the fact I think it is a possibility show how talented I believe he was. I would not write that about Djokovic for example or Federer although I think they are very talented players. But it begs the question was the reason that he reached these great levels also a function of his high risk style and perhaps others like perhaps a Frankie Kovacs could have reached these heights if they played the same sort of high risk style. Bobby Riggs for example thought Kovacs' best was arguably the best and some others also believe that.

It's clear in majors that Hoad was not invincible. In classic majors he was 2-2 with his rival Ken Rosewall and he had poor record in the Pro Majors. To be fair I believe he was perhaps past his best when he reached the finals of the Pro Majors in the 1960's.

pc1 09-17-2012 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 6904176)
Sedgman beat Trabert in the final, just like he did at Wembley.



What the hell has personal differences over 1960 got to do with making a ranking list of the best professional players of 1959?



23-23 is for all their 1959 matches, yes? I believe Hoad won 15 out of 28 on the 4-man world pro tour, but Gonzales was unbeaten against both Cooper and Anderson, while Hoad lost enough matches to Cooper and Anderson for Gonzales to win the 4-man tour.



Which tournament did Hoad win in 1958?

Here's the answer below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 6904483)
Vainquers has Hoad winning the Melbourne Pros RR in 1958.


Mustard 09-17-2012 10:01 AM

Thanks, pc1.

pc1 09-17-2012 10:04 AM

Some stats on Lew Hoad in 1959
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 6901828)
Interesting you wrote that.

Let's look at 1959 from Joe's book. These are the tournaments Hoad entered.

Victorian Pro Champs
Hoad beat Trabert after a bye.
Loss to Gonzalez next round.
Loss to Segura for third place

Queensland Pro Champs
Hoad beat Cooper in first round
Loss to Trabert in the next round.
Gonzalez beat Hoad for third place

Western Australian Pro Champs
Impressive win.
Hoad beat Segura, Rosewall and Cooper to win the tournament

NSW Pro Champs
Hoad beat Anderson in the quarters after a bye
Loss to Gonzalez in the next round.
Rosewall beat Hoad for third place

South Australian Pro Champs
Hoad beat Rose, Trabert and Rosewall to win the tournament

World Pro Champs also US Pro
Hoad beat Riggs in quarters after bye
Hoad beat Segura
Hoad lost to Gonzalez in straights

Masters Round Robin
Gonzalez and Hoad finished with identical w-l if 5-1 but Gonzalez won the tournament because he defeated Hoad

O'Keefe Pro Champs
Hoad beat Rose in the first round
Sedgman beat Hoad in semi
Gonzalez won the tournament by beating Sedgman

Tournament of Champions
Impressive win by Hoad in defeating Anderson, Rosewall and Gonzalez to win the tournament

Hoad played a tour which according to McCauley was won by Trabert. Rosewall and Sedgman also played.

French Pro Champs
Hoad beat Molloy in the first round easily
Hoad beat Rose in the quarters
Hoad lost to Sedgman in four sets in the semi.
Trabert won the tournament over Sedgman
Hoad beat Rosewall for third

London Pro Indoor Champs at Wembley
Hoad beat Horn-first round
Hoad lost to Segura in the quarters
Hoad beat Rose for fifth

Paris Round Robin
Hoad finished with a 1-2 record with Sedgman, Rosewall and Trabert participating. Sedgman won the tournament with a 3-0 record with Rosewall second at 2-1.


South Australian Round Robin
Hoad won with a 3-0 record Sedgman 2-1 Gonzalez 1-2 and Hartwig 0-3

NSW Pro Champs
Hoad beat Rose in the first round
Hoad beat Anderson in the Semi
Hoad lost to Gonzalez in the final in straight sets

Queensland Pro Champs
Hoad beat Cooper in the first round
Rosewall beat Hoad in the semi
Rosewall beat Gonzalez in the final

Judge for yourself if 1959 is dominant.

Yes I didn't include the tour but you already know the record there which is 42-20 won-lost with Gonzalez, Anderson and Cooper. Gonzalez finished 47-15 but lost his head to head 13-15 to Hoad.

Incidentally which two Pro Majors did he win?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 6902675)
Here's the stats
Hoad in tournament play in 1959 according to McCauley
Three tournaments won in thirteen attempts.
A 25-14 record.

If you count the tournament in early 1960 as part of 1959
Then it's four tournaments in fourteen attempts
A 29-15 record.

He lost a tour in which Trabert, Rosewall and Sedgman participated.

He finished 42-20 on a tour with Gonzalez, Anderson and Cooper
Gonzalez had the best record at 47-15 on this tour but lost 13-15 to Hoad in their individual encounters. Cooper was third at 21-40 and Anderson was fourth at 13-48.

There was also another tour in Stockholm, Gothenburg, Oslo, Lyon, Marseille and Berlin. Hoad finished third. Sedgman won with 18 wins, 9 losses followed closely by Rosewall with 17 wins, 10 losses, Hoad far behind with 11 and Trabert trailing everyone with 8.

Is this a dominant year?


Just some information on Hoad's year of 1959 in which he had another tour with Pancho Gonzalez and also toured with Cooper and Anderson.

BobbyOne 09-17-2012 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 6904471)
Some information on Hoad. Yes I know it's wikipedia but it seems to be okay.

Incidentally Vainqueurs has Hoad winning 42 tournaments in his career. The total is probably higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Hoad

Hoad was obviously a great physical specimen who could inspire awe with his almost inhuman shotmaking. Was his best better than anyone else? Possibly but we cannot ever prove that. However the fact I think it is a possibility show how talented I believe he was. I would not write that about Djokovic for example or Federer although I think they are very talented players. But it begs the question was the reason that he reached these great levels also a function of his high risk style and perhaps others like perhaps a Frankie Kovacs could have reached these heights if they played the same sort of high risk style. Bobby Riggs for example thought Kovacs' best was arguably the best and some others also believe that.

It's clear in majors that Hoad was not invincible. In classic majors he was 2-2 with his rival Ken Rosewall and he had poor record in the Pro Majors. To be fair I believe he was perhaps past his best when he reached the finals of the Pro Majors in the 1960's.

I agree.

But Hoad also lost several pro majors' finals when he was in his prime (French Pro 1958, US Pro 1958 and 1959 and even lost a couple of matches before reaching the final (Wembley 1957, 1959, French pro 1959)...

urban 09-17-2012 10:05 AM

Following McCauley and PC1 for 1959 i have added 32-15 (25-14) in tournament play (including 3rd and 5th place play offs) plus 42-20 in the World Series plus an unknown number of matches in a France tour with Sedgman, Rosewall, Trabert, which Trabert won. In another tour through Europe he won 11-16 (?). For the year it would be 74-35 or 67-34, if we include the latter tour 85-50. As we have discussed earlier, the percentage is good for the hard competition (always top contenders) on the pro tour, but not overwhelming.

BobbyOne 09-17-2012 10:13 AM

pc1,

Thanks for listing up Hoad's 1959 record.

I guess Dan means the 1959 Forest Hills tournament and the 1960 Melbourne r.r. I don't know if we should rate the latter for 1959 as Dan has done.

I have doubts if we should regard Forest Hills a s pro major. It was held only four times. But if yet why not rate the L.A. Masters as pro majors? The latter had the same strong competition as F.H.

kiki 09-17-2012 10:14 AM

Imo Hoad is the only guy who could be legitimate GOAT without focusing too much on records.So terrific was his peak and Rosewall and Gonzalezknew ot

BobbyOne 09-17-2012 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urban (Post 6904507)
Following McCauley and PC1 for 1959 i have added 32-15 (25-14) in tournament play (including 3rd and 5th place play offs) plus 42-20 in the World Series plus an unknown number of matches in a France tour with Sedgman, Rosewall, Trabert, which Sedgman won. For the year it would be 74-35 or 67-34. As we have discussed earlier, the percentage is good for the hard competition (always top contenders) on the pro tour, but not overwhelming.

Hoad was 11:16 in the 1959 European Grand prix tour.

BobbyOne 09-17-2012 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 6904527)
Imo Hoad is the only guy who could be legitimate GOAT without focusing too much on records.So terrific was his peak and Rosewall and Gonzalezknew ot

Fine that you post again. I almost had missed you a few days...

pc1 09-17-2012 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 6904527)
Imo Hoad is the only guy who could be legitimate GOAT without focusing too much on records.So terrific was his peak and Rosewall and Gonzalezknew ot

That's always been the question with Lew Hoad. For one match he very well close have been the GOAT but it is debatable. Yet at the same time there has been an argument that if there was a tournament in which the losers would have to jump off a bridge, then perhaps the winner would be Pancho Gonzalez because in do or die match Gonzalez may reach the highest level.

So what do we look at for GOAT? Hoad obviously has wonderful credentials as a great player and the opinions of players who have played or people who have seen him viewed him with awe but there are also experts like Jack Kramer who felt Hoad was overrated because of his inconsistency in playing level.

Objectively the total career accomplishments of some like Laver and Rosewall surpass Hoad easily. I don't think Hoad can stand up to some in career accomplishment. So we have to look at peak level of play and look at Hoad's best years.

Consistency is important in evaluating greatness but you also have to look at peak level. That's always the problem with evaluating Lew Hoad.

Mustard 09-17-2012 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 6904504)
Just some information on Hoad's year of 1959 in which he had another tour with Pancho Gonzalez and also toured with Cooper and Anderson.

And here's the final result of the 1959 4-man tour:

1. Pancho Gonzales 47-15
2. Lew Hoad 42-20
3. Ashley Cooper 21-40
4. Mal Anderson 13-48

kiki 09-17-2012 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne (Post 6904533)
Fine that you post again. I almost had missed you a few days...

I was learning history


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse