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-   -   NTRP Questions... (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=440721)

leaugeCO 09-20-2012 01:36 PM

NTRP Questions...
 
Hello All,

I was browsing through the forum and noticed a TON of misguided/false thoughts, claims, answers, etc about NTRP. I work for the USTA as a district NTRP Coordinator and thought that I would try and help to clear up any questions that players might have. It's crazy how many players call me in my district every year with statements/rumors that they think are fact when it comes to NTRP. I'm new to this spot and don't know if there is anyone else already doing this that works with USTA, but like I said, through a quick first glance I came across a lot of false info. So with that... please feel free to ask any questions that you might have and I'll try my best to check back frequently to provide answers... with what I am allowed to tell you of course :wink: Can't provide your rating to the hundreth, kinda want to keep my job.

leaugeCO 09-20-2012 01:40 PM

Here's my first basic overview... I'm sure many of the more active players already know this but there are plenty that do not.

How NTRP works (basic explanation):
There is a table that contains the expected outcome (specific score) for every possible match up of players. If you are a 3.45 and I am a 3.30, you will be expected to win by a certain margin. For example’s sake, we’ll say that expected outcome is 6-3, 6-3. If you do win by that exact score, we will both receive a match rating that is the same as our start rate. Note: Start rates are the prior year’s ‘year-end rating’ or for self-rated players a 0.0. If you win the match 6-4, 6-4, I exceeded the expected result, so even though I lost, my rating for that match will be slightly higher than before (ex: maybe up .03). Your rating would drop the same amount for that match. If you win the match 6-2, 6-2, your rating will improve and mine will drop. These match ratings will be averaged to come up with our year-end rating.

There are hundreds of other variables that can also be considered. The algorithm for doubles is very complex, but basically will do the same thing as explained above, but using the average of the two people on the court to determine what the expected outcome would be.

Any player who participated in Championship levels (i.e. Districts, Sectionals and/or Nationals) becomes a Benchmark rated player. Also, anyone who is dynamically disqualified during the league season would become a benchmark. This does not indicate in any way, the level of the player. The rating calculation starts at the National benchmark level, down to Sectionals, down to Districts, down to the local level. Benchmarks drive the ratings for all other players. If you became a benchmark by advancing to Districts and I played against you during the regular season, that match would be weighted more heavily for me, so it could affect my rating more.

One myth that exists (among many) is that the position has an impact on your rating. This is completely false. It doesn’t matter if you play #1 singles or #3 doubles. It just matters who your opponent is since that will determine how you should do in that specific match. Another source of confusion is the assumption that winning means you will move up and losing means you will move down. If a player won every match by a margin that is less than expected, she could actually move down with an undefeated record. Likewise, a player who loses every match could actually move up if she lost by a closer than expected margin in every match. Often times, players’ ratings are moving small or large amounts, but within the level (not quite across the line to the next level).

The 3.5 level is from 3.01 up to 3.50; 4.0 is from 3.51 up to 4.00 and so on. It is possible for one player to have a terrific season and move up .20, but if she started at 3.24, that will move her up to 3.44 and she’ll still be a 3.5. A different player, who had a much worse season, could have started at 3.48 and moved up to 3.52; so she would be a 4.0 level player. If this part of it were transparent, I believe there would be far fewer complaints because players would be able to see that the system is working very well. Unfortunately, since this type of information could be misused by many players, USTA National still does not provide it.

Hopefully that will help you to understand some of the basics behind how NTRP works. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

F. Perry 09-20-2012 01:50 PM

Nice of you to offer this info! I for one am curious what the most common misinformation about NTRP is that you encounter. You mention a couple things in your post, but since you say there is a lot, I'd be curious what it is--both on this board and elsewhere in general.

leaugeCO 09-20-2012 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F. Perry (Post 6910711)
Nice of you to offer this info! I for one am curious what the most common misinformation about NTRP is that you encounter. You mention a couple things in your post, but since you say there is a lot, I'd be curious what it is--both on this board and elsewhere in general.

Again, I just browsed quickly so don't have exact specifics on this board but I did see someone mention that nothing except for USTA leagues (Adult, Senior, Super Senior) counts towards your rating, ie. no tournaments or local leagues. Any sactioned tournament definitely does go towards your rating and unless the local district has specifically opted out NTRP for a league, then they will count as well. USTA leagues are weighted slightly heavier however.

Also the points mentioned in the second post are the huge ones... win/loss record, position played, benchmarks being the top of level. You could be the lowest rated 3.5 possible, a 3.01, and have a benchmark.

rtl11 09-20-2012 02:33 PM

so does mixed doubles count?
 
It is my understanding that mixed doubles and combo do not count, correct?

beernutz 09-20-2012 02:37 PM

Is it true that a 6-0 6-0 win by a computer-rated player will not affect their dynamic rating?

goober 09-20-2012 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leaugeCO (Post 6910725)
Again, I just browsed quickly so don't have exact specifics on this board but I did see someone mention that nothing except for USTA leagues (Adult, Senior, Super Senior) counts towards your rating, ie. no tournaments or local leagues. Any sactioned tournament definitely does go towards your rating and unless the local district has specifically opted out NTRP for a league, then they will count as well. USTA leagues are weighted slightly heavier however.
.

You may want to check your facts on thse statements.

Each section determines whether or not tournament count into NTRP calculations. Some count them into NTRP and some don't.

Do open and age goup tourneys count? I thought they didn't?

leaugeCO 09-20-2012 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtl11 (Post 6910786)
It is my understanding that mixed doubles and combo do not count, correct?

Correct... If you play three or more matches in a gender specific league then any mixed results are thrown out. Combo can be opted in by any section/district but generally do not.

leaugeCO 09-20-2012 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 6910795)
Is it true that a 6-0 6-0 win by a computer-rated player will not affect their dynamic rating?

6-0, 6-0 matches do count towards your rating.

leaugeCO 09-20-2012 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 6910812)
You may want to check your facts on thse statements.

Each section determines whether or not tournament count into NTRP calculations. Some count them into NTRP and some don't.

Do open and age goup tourneys count? I thought they didn't?

You are correct... Typo/unintentional omit on my part (happens a bit as you can see from the one in my user name). Sections/districts (some sections ultimately let the districts decide) have the option on what counts, however they must specifically opt out as the default is to include all tournaments/leagues. The vast majority of the 17 sections do use tournaments however.

floridatennisdude 09-20-2012 03:45 PM

Just for kicks...what is the expected outcome of a 4.00 female vs a 4.00 male?

This one comes up a lot

leaugeCO 09-20-2012 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude (Post 6910884)
Just for kicks...what is the expected outcome of a 4.00 female vs a 4.00 male?

This one comes up a lot

I'm not even allowed to see the algorithm or table of expected outcomes. Ill ask the guy that made the system though and see if that would be something I can give out.

dizzlmcwizzl 09-20-2012 03:56 PM

Thank you for posting ... most of what you have said is not new to us. When these questions surface there are some misleading responses but the majority of folks get it right.


This is the first of two questions ... last year we had several folks elevated in early start ratings which in my section are posted in September. By Year-End, nearly everyone of those folks were subsequently returned back to their previous levels.

When other teams complained about how few bump-ups there were, our Section Coordinator said that our section's representative played poorly at nationals and our section used their discretion to "dial back" our ratings.

Just how much discretion does a section have in manipulating the year-end ratings of their section?

dizzlmcwizzl 09-20-2012 04:00 PM

Second of two questions ...

Besides the male - female debate ... a close second involves the self rate scourge.

The number one solution that comes up is limiting the availability of self rated players for the post season. I suspect that these decisions are made way above your pay grade ... but is there ever any discussion in the USTA about self rated players, other than to figure out how to get more of them into the system?

rtl11 09-20-2012 05:45 PM

4.0 female vs 4.0 male
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude (Post 6910884)
Just for kicks...what is the expected outcome of a 4.00 female vs a 4.00 male?

This one comes up a lot

Weakest 4.0 men vs strongest 4.0 woman is 6-4 6-4.

floydcouncil 09-20-2012 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floridatennisdude (Post 6910884)
Just for kicks...what is the expected outcome of a 4.00 female vs a 4.00 male?

This one comes up a lot

4.0B male vs. 4.0B female: I'd expect 6-0, 6-1 result. If she's SINGLE, HOT with a C (or larger) cup size, then 7-6, 7-5!!!!!!!

beernutz 09-20-2012 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leaugeCO (Post 6910861)
6-0, 6-0 matches do count towards your rating.

That's interesting because I thought 6-0 6-0 scores only counted toward the dynamic rating of the loser but not the winner. Thanks for setting me straight.

SweetH2O 09-20-2012 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leaugeCO (Post 6910861)
6-0, 6-0 matches do count towards your rating.

I appreciate you being here to answer questions. Very generous of you.

Your answer above is different than what is said in the link below. Could this be another difference from section to section?
http://www.atlanta.usta.com/Dynamic_...namic_NTRPFAQ/

mikeler 09-20-2012 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leaugeCO (Post 6910725)
Again, I just browsed quickly so don't have exact specifics on this board but I did see someone mention that nothing except for USTA leagues (Adult, Senior, Super Senior) counts towards your rating, ie. no tournaments or local leagues. Any sactioned tournament definitely does go towards your rating and unless the local district has specifically opted out NTRP for a league, then they will count as well. USTA leagues are weighted slightly heavier however.

Also the points mentioned in the second post are the huge ones... win/loss record, position played, benchmarks being the top of level. You could be the lowest rated 3.5 possible, a 3.01, and have a benchmark.


How far back in time do these calculations go? I played NTRP tournaments years ago, will that always effect my top secret rating even as I get older?

NTRPolice 09-20-2012 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweetH2O (Post 6911136)
I appreciate you being here to answer questions. Very generous of you.

Your answer above is different than what is said in the link below. Could this be another difference from section to section?
http://www.atlanta.usta.com/Dynamic_...namic_NTRPFAQ/

I just checked with my section and the one nearest me. None of those said that 0-0 scores do NOT count, so if I was looking in the right places, I believe the OP is correct for this section.

However, I have heard that 0-0 scores do not count (like your section) but I cannot verify this for mine. I am curious to where the rumor is from though.


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