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boramiNYC 09-26-2012 10:00 AM

Running Forehands
 
With all the excitement about open stance and modern topspin stroke notwithstanding usual running forehands are out of that mold. Invariably they are very closed stance (which is a necessity) but still they can be hit very powerfully with pretty good control if executed well. Maybe not as spinny as regular topspin fh and more flat.

Can you share your ideas on this shot about the technique and/or biomechanics? I don't know if a true western grip can execute this shot but for SW and E grips this is a very important shot. I'm trying to better understand its mechanics.

Limpinhitter 09-26-2012 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramiNYC (Post 6920420)
With all the excitement about open stance and modern topspin stroke notwithstanding usual running forehands are out of that mold. Invariably they are very closed stance (which is a necessity) but still they can be hit very powerfully with pretty good control if executed well. Maybe not as spinny as regular topspin fh and more flat.

Can you share your ideas on this shot about the technique and/or biomechanics? I don't know if a true western grip can execute this shot but for SW and E grips this is a very important shot. I'm trying to better understand its mechanics.

I can't explain why, and I haven't heard a convincing explanation, but, I do agree that, when hitting a forehand while running laterally out wide, it's easier and more natural to hit with either a closed stance, or, at least be mostly sideways to the target, especially when hitting cross court.

LeeD 09-26-2012 10:15 AM

Maybe because that shot cannot be reached if you tried to stop your momentum with a open stance. You needed the speed thru the hitting zone just to get into position to hit the ball.
Sampras had one of the best.
Just like a batter running to first base, he cannot stop right there, but runs thru past first base.
As opposed to a runner going to third, where he HAS to stop to maintain contact with the bag, he can't get there as quickly.

Ash_Smith 09-26-2012 10:16 AM

In an ideal world you'll use either a mogul step or a flow step...

http://jezgreen.com/the-mogul-step
http://jezgreen.com/the-flow-movement

Although these aren't demo'd from a really wide position, they are still appropriate patterns and give you the bast chance of recovery.

Cheers

tricky 09-26-2012 10:16 AM

In a running FH, to initiate the backswing, you consciously bring the racquet "down" or under the ball. This will cause the elbow to pivot high as the racquet is taken back (like Sampras.)

This has big advantages when moving laterally. You don't need as much torso rotation to complete the backswing and forward swing. As a result, you can still swing through the ball with little restriction. Your stance will naturally be more closed.

Limpinhitter 09-26-2012 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith (Post 6920452)
In an ideal world you'll use either a mogul step or a flow step...

http://jezgreen.com/the-mogul-step
http://jezgreen.com/the-flow-movement

Although these aren't demo'd from a really wide position, they are still appropriate patterns and give you the bast chance of recovery.

Cheers

I can't speak for the OP, but, that's not what I mean by a running forehand. I mean hitting on the run laterally. Here are some examples of what I'm referring to. Federer, Sampras and Nadal all seem to have the same footwork - planting with the right foot (left for Nadal), on the backswing and stepping across with the left foot (right for Nadal), on the forward swing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWwiqsI7duk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnB3Jxy9Ecc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz47_0dMCME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q442oHhPJ0

ATP100 09-26-2012 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith (Post 6920452)
In an ideal world you'll use either a mogul step or a flow step...

http://jezgreen.com/the-mogul-step
http://jezgreen.com/the-flow-movement

Although these aren't demo'd from a really wide position, they are still appropriate patterns and give you the bast chance of recovery.

Cheers


I agree with almost all your posts... I don't particularly like these video
example's.

LeeD 09-26-2012 10:38 AM

Those are not running forehands, in the sense I think of.
They are forehands hit from out wide, where the player easily get's there in time to hit the ball.
Running forehands, Sampras goes another 3 steps before recovery, full speed to get to the ball, not sauntering over to it. Running forehands are seldom hit as rally balls, as you hit the ball, then your momentum takes you far off the court.

boramiNYC 09-26-2012 10:39 AM

Ash, I meant something more wide and a little farther out of reach where you have to take big strides. But, for not too wide ones those are great.

Cheetah 09-26-2012 10:58 AM

Racquet prep high
hit off the left foot for righties. you don't 'step across'. you just continue your run w/ your normal stride and time it to hit on your left foot.
come under the ball and finish high.
aim for 3/4 wide or dtl shot

no jumping/pivoting as in the vids posted by ash. that's for a normal wide shot. not a running fh.

boramiNYC 09-26-2012 11:32 AM

I'm especially interested in the core movement and control on this shot. And how so much power can be generated without the core rotation. Any ideas?

LeeD 09-26-2012 11:42 AM

Watch vids of Sampras hitting running forehands.
He hits harder on those than most player can hit, period.
Good enough is sufficient.

Cheetah 09-26-2012 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramiNYC (Post 6920670)
I'm especially interested in the core movement and control on this shot. And how so much power can be generated without the core rotation. Any ideas?

I already answered this. There is little to no core movement. The power comes from prepping the racquet high and letting it drop down under the ball from gravity and also from hitting off of the left foot for a stable base. Most rec players just run through the shot which is wrong. And by 'run through' i mean they just hit the ball no matter where their feet are and run through it instead of giving consideration to striking while on the left foot.

Hit off the left foot. high prep. let the racquet drop down. hit outside of the ball. finish high. That gives you lots of power.

edit: You don't necessarily 'swing through' on this shot. It's more like a pendulum. gravity does the work.

tricky 09-26-2012 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramiNYC (Post 6920670)
I'm especially interested in the core movement and control on this shot. And how so much power can be generated without the core rotation. Any ideas?

It's due to the U-backswing or pendulum motion of the backswing (torso rotation mostly loads the shoulder abductors) This motion doesn't require a lot of torso rotation, and you generate most of the power from forward/linear weight transfer.

Cheetah 09-26-2012 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tricky (Post 6920839)
It's due to the U-backswing or pendulum motion of the backswing (torso rotation mostly loads the shoulder abductors) This motion doesn't require a lot of torso rotation, and you generate most of the power from forward/linear weight transfer.

It's the forward swing that has a pendulum motion, not the backswing.

How do you get forward/linear weight transfer on a running forehand?

LeeD 09-26-2012 01:04 PM

You don't. You get the power from your arms. Notice the longer than normal backswing.

tyu1314 09-26-2012 01:05 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfaZQ...&feature=share.
By jeffsalzenstein, shows how to hit a heavy forehand when you are being pull back or to the side.

Cheetah 09-26-2012 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 6920876)
You don't. You get the power from your arms. Notice the longer than normal backswing.

yes i know. i was just trying to point out that he was incorrect by saying u use liner forward weight transfer.

Cheetah 09-26-2012 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyu1314 (Post 6920878)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfaZQ...&feature=share.
By jeffsalzenstein, shows how to hit a heavy forehand when you are being pull back or to the side.

that's a wide fh. not a running fh.

tricky 09-26-2012 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah (Post 6920854)
It's the forward swing that has a pendulum motion, not the backswing.

The backswing as well. On the FH swing, the pendulum takeback gives you a very high elbow position, and it lets you sling the racquet at the ball. It lets you drive through the ball cleanly, yet have a true reverse finish.

There's a mechanical reason why. Most torso rotation is there to load the up-down-up motion of the swing (shoulder abduction.) This is difficult to load when you're moving laterally, and in fact your ability to drive through the ball gets compromised when moving this way with a traditional loop. However, the pendulum motion doesn't require that element, because it doesn't load the shoulder to swing the arm across the body. Thus you can still plow through a ball as if you were stepping into the shot. It gives you the same depth/pace.

Quote:

How do you get forward/linear weight transfer on a running forehand?
It requires really good footwork. You have to shift your weight over the outside of your foot while suppressing sideways lean with the trunk. To do that, this may require you to significantly lower and widen your base.


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