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-   -   internal hip rotation (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=441346)

pushing_wins 09-27-2012 12:55 PM

internal hip rotation
 
the key to a good forehand, imho.

has this been discussed yet?


especially on the high forehand, most rec players are limited by their range of motion. internal hip stretches and excercises to increase ROM wiil add lots of power to the forehand.

LeeD 09-27-2012 12:57 PM

use you legs to hit every shot...

pushing_wins 09-27-2012 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 6922830)
use you legs to hit every shot...

you will end up spinning around if you dont have a good range of motion in your hips

LeeD 09-27-2012 01:05 PM

U can't employ your hips without using your legs.

Limpinhitter 09-27-2012 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pushing_wins (Post 6922828)
the key to a good forehand, imho.

has this been discussed yet?


especially on the high forehand, most rec players are limited by their range of motion.

I don't know what you mean by "internal" hip rotation. But, leading your UBR with hip rotation is definitely one of the keys to a modern forehand and a 2hb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 6922847)
U can't employ your hips without using your legs.

True, but, it's not something you have to think about. When you rotate your hip, your legs act automatically. It's like turning and tilting your upper body on serve. Your legs do that for you, but, you don't have think about your legs. You think about turning and tilting your upper body.

Jonny S&V 09-27-2012 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pushing_wins (Post 6922828)
the key to a good forehand, imho.

has this been discussed yet?


especially on the high forehand, most rec players are limited by their range of motion.

Are you talking about both hips? Because the only hip that internally rotates on a modern, open-stance forehand is the left (for a righty). The right hip should externally rotate (for a righty).

Maui19 09-27-2012 02:26 PM

Swing the human racquet.

pushing_wins 09-27-2012 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny S&V (Post 6922981)
Are you talking about both hips? Because the only hip that internally rotates on a modern, open-stance forehand is the left (for a righty). The right hip should externally rotate (for a righty).

right hip is more important. it rotates internally?

Chas Tennis 09-27-2012 06:32 PM

Muscles that internally rotate the hip.
 
There are many muscles that internally rotate the hip.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...ernal_rotation

Some years ago my instructor had us raise the heel high to pivot on the ball of the foot. That internally rotates the hip.

If I really want to push a heavy load of clothes along a closet bar I put my hand on the clothes and do this same pivot on the ball of the foot. It's a forceful way to push the clothes.

spacediver 09-27-2012 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny S&V (Post 6922981)
Are you talking about both hips? Because the only hip that internally rotates on a modern, open-stance forehand is the left (for a righty). The right hip should externally rotate (for a righty).

huh?

Haven't you got it backwards?

(i don't think we're discussing the coiling motion here - we're talking about the uncoiling).

Chas Tennis 09-28-2012 04:55 AM

Internal Hip Rotation
 
This demo video has a lot of useful information.

The motion used in the exercise - pivot on the ball of the foot - was the motion an instructor of mine taught.

See especially 7:40 of the tennis video for the hip rotation in a forehand.

http://www.swing-speed.com/tennis.php

Pushing_wins, is this the movement that you had in mind?

dominikk1985 09-28-2012 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pushing_wins (Post 6922828)
the key to a good forehand, imho.

has this been discussed yet?


especially on the high forehand, most rec players are limited by their range of motion. internal hip stretches and excercises to increase ROM wiil add lots of power to the forehand.

we need to be more precise. which hip are we talking about?

dominikk1985 09-28-2012 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis (Post 6923890)
This demo video has a lot of useful information.

The motion used in the exercise - pivot on the ball of the foot - was the motion an instructor of mine taught.

See especially 7:40 of the tennis video for the hip rotation in a forehand.

http://www.swing-speed.com/tennis.php

Pushing_wins, is this the movement that you had in mind?

I believe that the foot pivot is more of a follow through action. the hips are not rotating on themselves, they are driven by the back leg. this principle is called ground reaction force in biomechanics. you are actually already pushing against the ground while the hips are still coiling backwards.

If you are just pivoting you are not using the ground and spinning. and if you pull the hips/core around you are not using the ground either. you are only using ground reaction force if you drive the rear leg inward and forward.

you can see the same very well with a baseball player



the finish of the move is then more of an external rotation on top of the right femural head but first the rear leg is driving inward before the heel even leaves the ground (no spinning).

corners 09-28-2012 05:54 AM

On a righty's forehand the right hip internally rotates during the coal or loading phase during the backswing. The right hip then externally rotates as the pelvis rotates toward the net, or opens, during the forward swing. The internal rotation of the hip loads the external rotators (pre-stretches the glutes, etc.) for expression of power during the swing.

Tricky's drill of hitting your forehand while balancing on your right foot will highlight this motion for you. (And will teach you proper weight transfer, as you will "fall" onto your left foot as you swing balanced on your right foot. If you don't fall forward into your left foot you are not transferring your weight properly.)

Chas Tennis 09-28-2012 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 6923949)
I believe that the foot pivot is more of a follow through action. the hips are not rotating on themselves, they are driven by the back leg. this principle is called ground reaction force in biomechanics. you are actually already pushing against the ground while the hips are still coiling backwards.

If you are just pivoting you are not using the ground and spinning. and if you pull the hips/core around you are not using the ground either. you are only using ground reaction force if you drive the rear leg inward and forward.

you can see the same very well with a baseball player



the finish of the move is then more of an external rotation on top of the right femural head but first the rear leg is driving inward before the heel even leaves the ground (no spinning).

That's a great video for illustrating internal hip rotation.

I interpreted "internal hip rotation" in the OP using the anatomical definition as defined in the Manual of Structural Kinesiology.

Internal hip rotation is axial rotation of the femur at the hip joint. It rotates the entire leg below the hip. If the foot were fully in contact with the ground and could not turn and the femur axially rotated then that rotation would be very limited because the knee and ankle have such a small ranges of motion for rotation. If the heel is raised so that the foot pivots around the ball of the foot ball then the whole leg is free to axially rotate. That is how I see the foot pivot.

Is that your interpretation?

Limpinhitter 09-28-2012 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis (Post 6924054)
That's a great video for illustrating internal hip rotation.

I interpreted "internal hip rotation" in the OP using the anatomical definition as defined in the Manual of Structural Kinesiology.

Internal hip rotation is axial rotation of the femur at the hip joint. It rotates the entire leg below the hip. If the foot were fully in contact with the ground and could not turn and the femur axially rotated then that rotation would be very limited because the knee and ankle have such a small ranges of motion for rotation. If the heel is raised so that the foot pivots around the ball of the foot ball then the whole leg is free to axially rotate. That is how I see the foot pivot.

Is that your interpretation?

If that's what the OP means by internal hip rotation - femur rotation at the hip joint, then, I don't think that's directly relevant to hitting a forehand or a backhand. Rotation of the pelvis or pelvic girtle around the axis of the spine, is the relevant rotation, IMO. That's what I mean by hip rotation. That's what initiates upper body rotation and the kinetic chain and pulls the shoulders and ultimately pulls the arm and racquet through the swing.

Femur rotation may be a necessary part of the process of rotating the pelvis. Maybe not, I don't think so, but, I don't know with certainty. But, that's not something a tennis player should focus on. A tennis player should focus on leading his upper body rotation with his right hip in order to initiate the kinetic chain.

dominikk1985 09-28-2012 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter (Post 6924102)
If that's what the OP means by internal hip rotation - femur rotation at the hip joint, then, I don't think that's directly relevant to hitting a forehand or a backhand. Rotation of the pelvis or pelvic girtle around the axis of the spine, is the relevant rotation, IMO. That's what I mean by hip rotation. That's what initiates upper body rotation and the kinetic chain and pulls the shoulders and ultimately pulls the arm and racquet through the swing.

Femur rotation may be a necessary part of the process of rotating the pelvis. Maybe not, I don't think so, but, I don't know with certainty. But, that's not something a tennis player should focus on. A tennis player should focus on leading his upper body rotation with his right hip in order to initiate the kinetic chain.

the kinematic chain doesn't start at the hip. it starts at the ground. the hips don't rotate by themselves, they are rotated by the ground reaction forces. if you just rotate the hips/spine it will be an empty rotation.

but I agree that the internal rotation is not the driving force. it might start with internal rotation but then the hip will externally rotate on top of the femur-but due to the ground reaction force (closed chain) this will not cause the hip to rotate in the other direction but the hip to open.

pushing_wins 09-28-2012 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 6923949)
I believe that the foot pivot is more of a follow through action. the hips are not rotating on themselves, they are driven by the back leg. this principle is called ground reaction force in biomechanics. you are actually already pushing against the ground while the hips are still coiling backwards.

If you are just pivoting you are not using the ground and spinning. and if you pull the hips/core around you are not using the ground either. you are only using ground reaction force if you drive the rear leg inward and forward.

you can see the same very well with a baseball player



the finish of the move is then more of an external rotation on top of the right femural head but first the rear leg is driving inward before the heel even leaves the ground (no spinning).

i see internal rotation as the ball is being thrown

i m not talking about where the power comes from. i m only saying your need internal hip rotation flexibility to deliver the power.

pushing_wins 09-28-2012 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis (Post 6923890)
This demo video has a lot of useful information.

The motion used in the exercise - pivot on the ball of the foot - was the motion an instructor of mine taught.

See especially 7:40 of the tennis video for the hip rotation in a forehand.

http://www.swing-speed.com/tennis.php

Pushing_wins, is this the movement that you had in mind?

yeah

http://www.somaxsports.com/images/DolbyIHRafter.jpg

tricky 09-28-2012 09:30 AM

As corners pointed out, the one-foot drill teaches you what hip rotation actually is. Hip rotation facilitates balance, shifting or transfer of weight, etc. People associate hip rotation with the turning of the pelvis around the spine. This is actually not true.

Hip rotation can also be done via visualization. Imagine a line drawn between the back of your head and the back fence. When you initiate your stroke or unit turn, that line should begin to increase. That part is tricky, because when most people initiate the unit turn, that line decreases. It's subtle, but it affects your backswing, timing, how you load your kinetic chain, etc.


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