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-   -   Huh? I have golfer's elbow from tennis? Never got GE from actual golf. (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=441617)

TimeToPlaySets 09-30-2012 09:25 AM

Huh? I have golfer's elbow from tennis? Never got GE from actual golf.
 
Well, isn't that a hoot?

I played golf for a decade, 4 times a week, and never once got even a hint of "golfer's elbow".
I play tennis for 4 days, and I get a searing case of "golfer's elbow" on the inner elbow, yet absolutely zero hint of "tennis elbow".
Boy, what a complete joke. How the F does one get golfer's elbow from playing tennis? Talk about the most idiotic naming convention ever.

This is what I have:



If this golfer's elbow issue potentially threatened my livelihood, I'd quit and find a new hobby. It's just stupid to continue under those circumstances. GE also effects other aspects of your fitness and workouts.
  • I am using the blue Flexbar. 3x15 daily. Should I do more? I am also resuming my typical workout routine, as well. (I'm up to 3x50 now)
  • I ordered the PK Ki5x racket at 52 lbs.
  • I will take a few lessons on swing form that reduces GE.
  • I'll limit play to 1-2x a week.
  • I'm focusing on hitting less hard. Improving strategy & technique (hit deeper vs. ripping topspin that only lands at the service line, go to net, etc)

If these 5 aren't enough, I'm out.
There are millions of other hobbies out there.
The last thing I want is some annoying nagging injury for the rest of my life.

Actually, since I've already inflamed the GE by NOT doing the above this summer, if these steps do not work this Fall, I will take the entire winter off, and revisit next Spring. Once fully healed, if these 5 measures do not prevent GE, THEN I am out.

Ramon 09-30-2012 09:37 AM

I had Golfer's elbow, too. It primarily affects the forehand and the serve. For me, the switch to the Pro Kennex and soft strings was the biggest factor in getting healed. I did the Flexbar, too. With multi, I liked to string my Ki 5x at 57-60 pounds. I think it's more important to get the right kind of strings than to lower the tension. Mantis Comfort Synthetic is the most arm-friendly multi I ever tried. It's worth trying if you don't break strings that often. With soft strings, you should notice improvement in about 2 weeks.

Chas Tennis 09-30-2012 09:56 AM

Search recent threads with Golfer's Elbow, there are several. Very similar injury to Tennis Elbow(located on the outer elbow), so search those TE threads also.

GE is a tendon injury possibly associated with hitting forehands perhaps with certain grips and other tennis strokes. I believe serves also but I don't know why.

Super-Stupid Self-Taught Volley Technique -I got painful GE instantly when trying to add pace to my volley with a very bad technique and full force.

I can see where the name Golfer's Elbow may have come from:

1) When you accelerate the club - I'm not a golfer at all - I believe this tendon is under considerable tension.

2) Also, if you strike the ground during your swing the impact might put extreme stress on those already stretched tendons that come together at the origin on the medial epicondyle. Do you rarely hit the ground?

http://www.myptpro.com/overview-free...ow-pain-inside

The injury could occur from bad tennis stroke technique or using good technique when your body is not conditioned for the stresses of the stroke. For example only, tight/short muscles in your forearm. Maybe these forearm muscles are OK for a golf swing but too tight for a windshield wiper forehand?

I got some light GE pain on my non-tennis left elbow several months ago moving awkward heavy logs. I stopped all stress immediately and now it is OK but I can still detect it on some exercises. Don't diagnose or treat your unknown injury of unknown severity based on anybody's experience on the internet.

VERY IMPORTANT - I read that stressing an acute tendon injury can lead to defective healing on the microscopic level permanently. See my posts on GE & TE threads.

Stop stressing it and see a well-qualified Dr.

TimeToPlaySets 09-30-2012 10:01 AM

My GE is absolutely caused by my forehand, which I used to swing as hard as I could. At this age, it caused GE almost immediately. I also notice it on volleys where I "smash" the ball away. (and off center hits)

I have an open stance. For my entire life, I've been told this is a bad swing, and I am finally taking lessons to learn how to hit closed and stepping into the swing with the leading foot. This will be a complete and total rebuild of my open stance swing that I can do in my sleep.

I am hitting much softer now, and slicing a lot more, and this has helped. I also just got the PK Ki5x at 52 lbs, and will see how that helps.

The only way to not stress existing GE is to simply not play tennis. I can take a week off and it can return in ONE swing.
I want to take 2 weeks off (hard with winter approaching), and start with a fresh slate and see how the GE fares with the new racket and the recent blue Theraband strength improvements.

AFAIC, GE is just inner TE. Golfer's elbow is a myth. I golfed for a decade. I never ONCE heard any golfer complain about his elbow. What complete bulllshit. People hurt their backs from golfing. Not their elbows.

Moz 09-30-2012 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis (Post 6927781)
GE is a tendon injury possibly associated with hitting forehands perhaps with certain grips and other tennis strokes. I believe serves also but I don't know why.

I got GE from my serve. I believe it was caused by my continental grip shifting slightly on takeback to the forehand side so the pronation was 'blocked' and the follow through seemed to aggravate the elbow.

Chas Tennis 09-30-2012 10:39 AM

Do some research on acute injury tendon healing
 
"I want to take 2 weeks off (hard with winter approaching), and start with a fresh slate and see how the GE fares...."

Research tendon healing times especially in CharlieFedererer replies in TE & GE threads. 2-6 months might be a more reasonable estimate.

If you have played on an acute tendon injury "for more than a few weeks" according one source that I read you have completely missed an opportunity for optimal healing. I believe it.

It is easy to picture what goes on microscopically (see the CF illustrations).

The tendon attaches to the bone over a small area, say, over 1 square inch. ? A particular stress occurred from a tennis stroke that injured - tore or destructively stretched - the tendon over some of that connecting cross-sectional area. Pain immediately appears and the tendon immediately begins a healing process. If you continue to play, over the first days of healing the same particular stress that first injured the tendon is applied repeatedly to the healing tendon tissue.

But maybe this is not exactly what happens - I hope that it is not this bad - and you can find other descriptions. I have been looking. What do you picture is happening?

The tendon tissue that 'heals' in this way does not function like well-healed stronger scar tissue but as weakened scar tissue (fibrosis, tendinosis).

SystemicAnomaly 09-30-2012 11:53 AM

You might be gripping your tennis racquet more tightly than your golf clubs. It could be a combination of excessive gripping and excessive wrist actions. Be sure that your grip is fairly loose/relaxed most of the time. Perhaps the grip size on your tennis racket is too small or too large for your hand.

Do not "snap" your wrist on the serve. The wrist is c0cked at the beginning of the upward swing -- a combination of radial deviation with some wrist extension. The wrist goes to neutral at contact. You do not want excessive wrist flexion at contact or after contact. Instead, the hand/forearm is pronated prior to and after contact. (After contact, the elbow is allowed to bend to minimize stresses to other parts of the arm).

TimeToPlaySets 09-30-2012 02:11 PM

It's from the forehand. I do not have a big serve. It's basically a second serve.

It's not an extreme case by any stretch. But yes, I do not expect it to fully heal in 2 weeks. I just meant it should subside noticeably in 2 weeks. Then, I can see if the PK rackets are helping.

Ramon 09-30-2012 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeToPlaySets (Post 6928151)
It's from the forehand. I do not have a big serve. It's basically a second serve.

It's not an extreme case by any stretch. But yes, I do not expect it to fully heal in 2 weeks. I just meant it should subside noticeably in 2 weeks. Then, I can see if the PK rackets are helping.

Mine was not an extreme case either, so I didn't feel that I had to see a doctor. Of course, you have to be the judge of that. I have a big serve, and one of the first things I noticed was that my serve improved tremendously as my elbow healed. In 2 weeks the difference was noticeable enough that I knew for sure I was on the right track.

SystemicAnomaly 10-01-2012 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeToPlaySets (Post 6928151)
It's from the forehand. I do not have a big serve. It's basically a second serve...

Even if it is the FH more so than the serve, the problem could still be a combination of excessive griping force (with possible excessive wrist action). Have you established that you are using the proper grip size for your hand?

mikeler 10-01-2012 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeToPlaySets (Post 6928151)
It's from the forehand. I do not have a big serve. It's basically a second serve.

It's not an extreme case by any stretch. But yes, I do not expect it to fully heal in 2 weeks. I just meant it should subside noticeably in 2 weeks. Then, I can see if the PK rackets are helping.


If you want to speed up the healing process, I had good luck with ultrasound treatment plus rest. If I had not tried to come back too early, I think I would have only needed about 4 weeks to fully heal.

sadowsk2 10-01-2012 06:44 AM

Bottom line: If you have Tendinosis, you're looking at needing to COMPLETLY STOP playing tennis, and all other aggravating conditions for an extended period of time on average of 6-12 months. This assumes you aggressively treat the tendinosis with proper eccentric excerises (above and beyond simply using the flex bar).. Tendinons simply do not heal rapidly once the damage is done most notably because of minimal blood flow to the tendon... Switching to a different racquet / string setup is 100% completely irrelevant when recovering from tendinosis... The setup may prove useful once you;re completely healed, but it wont get you back playing anyone sooner... Again, this is all predicated on the fact that you have tendinOSIS and NOT tendinITIS. I myself have been diagnosed with tendinosis since early July and I'm hopefuly I can start playing again in March... Every day activities are fine, but if I start swinging a racquet I can "feel" its there... there is NO miracle cure unfortuantely other than good old fashion aggressive PT and rest.

Chas Tennis 10-01-2012 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadowsk2 (Post 6929184)
Bottom line: If you have Tendinosis, you're looking at needing to COMPLETLY STOP playing tennis, and all other aggravating conditions for an extended period of time on average of 6-12 months. This assumes you aggressively treat the tendinosis with proper eccentric excerises (above and beyond simply using the flex bar).. Tendinons simply do not heal rapidly once the damage is done most notably because of minimal blood flow to the tendon... Switching to a different racquet / string setup is 100% completely irrelevant when recovering from tendinosis... The setup may prove useful once you;re completely healed, but it wont get you back playing anyone sooner... Again, this is all predicated on the fact that you have tendinOSIS and NOT tendinITIS. I myself have been diagnosed with tendinosis since early July and I'm hopefuly I can start playing again in March... Every day activities are fine, but if I start swinging a racquet I can "feel" its there... there is NO miracle cure unfortuantely other than good old fashion aggressive PT and rest.

Have you been doing the eccentric exercises? Eccentric exercise treatment seems like one of the more hopeful areas of treatment but have the results been confirmed by neutral research? Seems risky without a well qualified Dr and supervised PT to start. I've had PT and believe that subtle differences in exercises or stretches can be important.

If you have any neutral references to its effectiveness please post.

Ramon 10-01-2012 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadowsk2 (Post 6929184)
Bottom line: If you have Tendinosis, you're looking at needing to COMPLETLY STOP playing tennis, and all other aggravating conditions for an extended period of time on average of 6-12 months. This assumes you aggressively treat the tendinosis with proper eccentric excerises (above and beyond simply using the flex bar).. Tendinons simply do not heal rapidly once the damage is done most notably because of minimal blood flow to the tendon... Switching to a different racquet / string setup is 100% completely irrelevant when recovering from tendinosis... The setup may prove useful once you;re completely healed, but it wont get you back playing anyone sooner... Again, this is all predicated on the fact that you have tendinOSIS and NOT tendinITIS. I myself have been diagnosed with tendinosis since early July and I'm hopefuly I can start playing again in March... Every day activities are fine, but if I start swinging a racquet I can "feel" its there... there is NO miracle cure unfortuantely other than good old fashion aggressive PT and rest.

So if I get a papercut I need to go to the emergency room? Give me a break!

While it's not good to tell someone not to go to a doctor if he has an injury, it's also unreasonable to tell someone to take 6-12 months off without knowing anything about his condition other than he feels pain while hitting a forehand.

No need to scare the guy into thinking it's doomsday. He even says it's not severe. If it was that bad, I think he would know it. I tore a tendon in my ankle once. Believe me, I knew it!

Chas Tennis 10-01-2012 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramon (Post 6929246)
So if I get a papercut I need to go to the emergency room? Give me a break! You know nothing about the severity of the OP's condition.

While it's not good to tell someone not to go to a doctor if he has an injury, it's also unreasonable to tell someone to take 6-12 months off without knowing anything about his condition other than he feels pain while hitting a forehand.

No need to scare the guy into thinking it's doomsday. He even says it's not severe.

I vote with sadowsk2's view with serious reservations about eccentric treatments or any treatments without a Dr and supervised PT. I look at playing tennis on an injury with a lighter racket as a 'treatment'.

Tennis Elbow and Golfer's Elbow are very common tennis injuries. If an acute tendon injury is stressed for a time (what does your research say? links?) the injury can develop tendinosis according to what I have read. Since the injury is, in fact, uncertain and undiagnosed a conservative approach of worrying like hell and seeing a well qualified Dr seems reasonable to me.

If you get 10 of these injury issues in your tennis future and assume you have a diagnosis from the internet and someone on the internet has a treatment, what is going to happen?

Ramon 10-01-2012 08:07 AM

If I think I might have torn a tendon, the first guy I'm going to see is a physician. The last thing I'm going to do is get advice from the internet. Why? I think that's what any reasonably intelligent person does. Soreness is a different matter.

These forums are here for sharing experiences, not so much for giving professional advice that requires a face-to-face visit.

If I get on the internet and someone basically tells me in a roundabout way that: "I think you might be dumb enough to have a severe injury and ask for unqualified random advice instead of seeing a professional...", then I might be offended by that.

sadowsk2 10-01-2012 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramon (Post 6929246)
So if I get a papercut I need to go to the emergency room? Give me a break!

While it's not good to tell someone not to go to a doctor if he has an injury, it's also unreasonable to tell someone to take 6-12 months off without knowing anything about his condition other than he feels pain while hitting a forehand.

No need to scare the guy into thinking it's doomsday. He even says it's not severe. If it was that bad, I think he would know it. I tore a tendon in my ankle once. Believe me, I knew it!

Ramon-

I prefaced what I said that "IF YOU HAVE TENDINOSIS" then "blah blah blah"... I'm impling that the subject will have sought a professional diagnosis. I was indicating that the standard treatment time for tendinosis is 6-12 months (I know, my orthopedic sports doctor gave me the MRI and I have been diagnosed with Tendinosis).
Tendinitis (be it GE or TE) can become Tendinosis unless proper medical treatment and proper daily living adjustments are applied... Again, if the case lingers, then its paramount that he get a proper medical diagnosis before things potentially go from bad to worse.

TimeToPlaySets 10-03-2012 07:02 PM

As per comments regarding lack of blood flow to the injured tendon, I have refused to let my GE impact my otherwise highly active fitness regiment.

After a week or two of laying back from activity, I am now back in full force. I've done yoga, weightlifting, Pilates, and bootcamp classes all week long. I'm indirectly working that elbow and it's feeling better and stronger.

TimeToPlaySets 06-23-2013 03:06 PM

After a winter off, I have been playing again, and I have zero issues with my elbow.
(I technically has golfer's elbow, the INNER elbow would hurt)

First, I am using the Dunlop Pro Revelation 90 racket from the 1990s.
Always loved this racket, and never had TE issues in my younger years using this racket.

I think my tennis elbow from last summer just was a case of too much tennis, too soon.
I played 3 days in a row, flared up the TE, and the TE never went away.
Now, I am pretty smart about limiting my play to once a week.
I think this has a lot to do with it.

I did some weight training over the winter, so maybe that has something to do with it.
I barely used the Blue Therabar. Maybe a handful of times at my desk.

I plam to keep doing heavy weight training all summer.
I plan to keep using the Blue Therabar all summer, as well.
I will try to do 50 every day, and get a burn in my forearm, if I can remember.

charliefedererer 06-23-2013 07:31 PM

Thanks for the follow up.

Glad you are feeling better.

Sounds like you have an overall good plan.

I would think that you could increase your play, if you wished, and likely still avoid a recurrence of GE now that you are using a less stiff frame and have strengthened the forearm.


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