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-   -   Was Mandlikova basically a lesser Navratilova, but with Evert's basline craft? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=441856)

dangalak 10-02-2012 11:17 AM

Was Mandlikova basically a lesser Navratilova, but with Evert's basline craft?
 
From what I've seen of her, she combined the abilities of these two players, albeit to a lesser extent. is that true?

treblings 10-02-2012 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dangalak (Post 6931622)
From what I've seen of her, she combined the abilities of these two players, albeit to a lesser extent. is that true?

she was her own player, ultra-talented shotmaker who maybe didn´t have that champions gene to the extent of Evert and Navratilova.

NadalAgassi 10-02-2012 12:00 PM

Not really. She is compared mostly to Goolagong but I dont even find them that similar. The closest comparision I could find is she is a Martina Hingis with more firepower but without the mental toughness or consistency.

kiki 10-02-2012 12:03 PM

Hanna was better than Martina at the baseline and better than Chris at the net.She could beat Chris from the backcourt, as she did at the 1981 FO, on Evert´s favourite sruface and tournament, and she could beat playing S&V Martina, as she did at the 1981 Wimbledon event (Navratilova´s best surface) or the 1985 USO final ( one of the best matches I ever saw, and I have seen a lot of big time tennis).

But, she never had the ambition of Martina and the mental toughness of Evert.last time I watched a player of that caliber, it was Hingis, who lacked some of Hana´s penetrating FH but surpassed her in the mental toughness department ( as well as overall strategy).

There was never a match I rooted against Mandlikova, she was a very special breed even if she behaved like a jerk sometimes.

NadalAgassi 10-02-2012 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 6931699)
Hanna was better than Martina at the baseline and better than Chris at the net.She could beat Chris from the backcourt, as she did at the 1981 FO, on Evert´s favourite sruface and tournament, and she could beat playing S&V Martina, as she did at the 1981 Wimbledon event (Navratilova´s best surface) or the 1985 USO final ( one of the best matches I ever saw, and I have seen a lot of big time tennis).

But, she never had the ambition of Martina and the mental toughness of Evert.last time I watched a player of that caliber, it was Hingis, who lacked some of Hana´s penetrating FH but surpassed her in the mental toughness department ( as well as overall strategy).

There was never a match I rooted against Mandlikova, she was a very special breed even if she behaved like a jerk sometimes.


I agree with all that, and that is why I said I found her closest comparision to Hingis. Both similarily were also swept aside and had their careers prematurely ended by the upgrade in the power game at one point, Hana in 87 onwards when the new graphite racquets began to produce either the huge power or heavy topspin games of Graf, Seles, Sabatini, Sanchez Vicario, and Hingis by the Williams led ball busting squad.

kiki 10-02-2012 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi (Post 6931704)
I agree with all that, and that is why I said I found her closest comparision to Hingis. Both similarily were also swept aside and had their careers prematurely ended by the upgrade in the power game at one point, Hana in 87 onwards when the new graphite racquets began to produce either the huge power or heavy topspin games of Graf, Seles, Sabatini, Sanchez Vicario, and Hingis by the Williams led ball busting squad.

Very true, but Martina coped very well with the 2 Williams,Seles and, to a lesser extent, with Davenport and Mary Pierce´s power.She was just so smart and talented, and she was the real last good volleyer on the women´s tour (Davenport was also great at the net and so was Kournikova, martina´s great doubles mate)

As for Hana, give her a medium powered racket, and she´ll crass anytime Sabatini and Sanchez ( if inspired enough of course, otherwise it is not Hana).Not so sure, of course, against Seles.She also had some sort of complex against Graf, too.

dangalak 10-02-2012 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi (Post 6931704)
I agree with all that, and that is why I said I found her closest comparision to Hingis. Both similarily were also swept aside and had their careers prematurely ended by the upgrade in the power game at one point, Hana in 87 onwards when the new graphite racquets began to produce either the huge power or heavy topspin games of Graf, Seles, Sabatini, Sanchez Vicario, and Hingis by the Williams led ball busting squad.

And this is the same pile of manure Williams fans spew since the day Hingis has retired from tennis the first time.

Explain how Hingis got "swept aside" by "power tennis" even though she has winning or competitive records against these "power players". You would think if she truly couldn't hang with them, she would at least have a decisive losing record against ONE of them. She doesn't. Yet she was "swept aside" by them.

Federer has a worse record against Nadal than Hingis has against any of those "big hitters". Yet I am certain that if he retired today, nobody would believe that he was swept aside by him.

Hingis remained the #1, won numerous titles (the YEC among them) and reached slam finals during the supposed peak of "power tennis". How is that possible?

She beat a Venus Williams, who was at the peak of her powers, in major tournaments. More than once. Sometimes she even embarrassed her. In the matches that she lost, she always pushed her even on surfaces that didn't suit her at all (Wimbledon 2000 QF), sometimes even to the brink of defeat. (USO 2000 SF)

Even Venus, who was in the heart of her prime couldn't beat her decisively in slams, on the contrary, she got embarrassed (AO 2001) and occasionally had to rely on massive chokes on Hingis' part to win. (again USO 2000)

Now, I am not the type of guy to regard chokes as victories. However, it is telling that many of Hingis' losses during that period only came after ginourmous chokes. If she truly couldn't handle the power of the new generation, she would never ever get in the position to choke in the first place. For the purpose of your claim, almost winning is sufficient, as it disproves your claim that the Williams and co's power was just too much for her. Did Graf's power only start working after Hingis was serving for the match? Did Venus power only start working when Hingis was about to put that smash away? Did Capriati's power only start working after Hingis had 4 matchpoints?

Serena is a different story. I have no proof that Hingis would be competitive with her during her peak (02-03) However, the same can be said for just about anyone on the tour back then and maybe in history. Do I have to remind you that peak Serena was a vastly superior player to even the one demolishing the current tour? Peak Serena being superior to her proves little about Hingis' ability to win slams in the new millenium.

You may continue. :)

kiki 10-02-2012 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dangalak (Post 6931622)
From what I've seen of her, she combined the abilities of these two players, albeit to a lesser extent. is that true?

I don´t think you are old enough to catch up any action from Hingis at ther peak, much less Mandlikova.

treblings 10-02-2012 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 6931814)
I don´t think you are old enough to catch up any action from Hingis at ther peak, much less Mandlikova.

good guess. based on his last post, he´s probably in high school

jrepac 10-02-2012 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiki (Post 6931699)
Hanna was better than Martina at the baseline and better than Chris at the net.She could beat Chris from the backcourt, as she did at the 1981 FO, on Evert´s favourite sruface and tournament, and she could beat playing S&V Martina, as she did at the 1981 Wimbledon event (Navratilova´s best surface) or the 1985 USO final ( one of the best matches I ever saw, and I have seen a lot of big time tennis).

But, she never had the ambition of Martina and the mental toughness of Evert.last time I watched a player of that caliber, it was Hingis, who lacked some of Hana´s penetrating FH but surpassed her in the mental toughness department ( as well as overall strategy).

There was never a match I rooted against Mandlikova, she was a very special breed even if she behaved like a jerk sometimes.

At her best, she could beat anyone, on any surface. She was the female version of Johnny Mac....immensely talented and a lot of fun to watch.

But, if she was off just a bit, she could not hold up against Chris or Martina

BTURNER 10-02-2012 03:09 PM

I am not at all sure she was better than Martina from the backcourt. slow clay may be our best determinator as more points are played back there and serve advantage is blunted the most. Hana reached the finals of RG once and won it that year, to a woman who won two and was a finalist in 6 others. They both used the same tactics on the dirt, and would have had to win most of their points from the backcourt.

NadalAgassi 10-02-2012 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dangalak (Post 6931792)
And this is the same pile of manure Williams fans spew since the day Hingis has retired from tennis the first time.

Explain how Hingis got "swept aside" by "power tennis" even though she has winning or competitive records against these "power players".

Records are over a whole career. The reason Hingis has respectable records vs the Williams sisters is she built up huge leads in 1997-1998, began losing the majority of matches from 2000 onwards hence why they had already evened out by the time she left, and then quit without facing them in their best years when the head to head would have swung heavily in their favor. She has a losing record vs Serena even though she didnt play any matches vs Serena once Serena became "Serena" (everyone of their matches were from 97-early 2002 when Hingis reached all 9 of her career slam finals and Serena won 1 of her eventual 15 slams). Their last 3 matches were a 6-3, 6-2 destruction at the U.S Open, a 3 set win for Serena in wicked windy conditions with Serena compiling 66 unforced errors, and a 6-4, 6-0 beatdown in Miami. At that point she was no longer competitive with Serena, and Serena was only getting started. Tell me how do you think she would have fared vs the Serena Slam version of Serena, seeing how their 3 matches just preceding that went, LOL! She has a more clear losing record vs Davenport, and she lost 70% (9 of 13) of their matches from 98-2000, the period both were in their primes together, including a 5 match losing streak at one point. After the 2000 Australian Open where Hingis was crushed again by Davenport she began crying at the trophy presentation and blurted out staring at Lindsay "I dont know to play you." The respectable H2H (trailing 11-14) is again based on her dominance in 97 when Lindsay was not a grand slam caliber player. The Williams hit as hard and serve harder than Lindsay and are twice as mobile, and Henin and Clijsters hit almost as hard as Lindsay are also twice as mobile, so that is what a Hingis who had already plateaued and stoped improving would have faced had she continued on, and we see how much trouble she had with prime Lindsay. Not an idication of the future, but still worth noting, she has a 2-7 record vs Graf, and peak Hingis lost 2 of 3 matches to 30 year old nearly retired Graf who was a shadow of her old self in late 98-99. She lost 4 matches in a row to Capriati who isnt even one of the best power players. The only great power player she has a winning record against is Venus, but with almost every win coming before 2000, when Venus began winning slams, and Seles but Seles was an early bloomer who was already a has been who would never win another slam again by the time she and Hingis began playing.

At the time she retired in late 2002 she was no longer ranked in the top 10, had not won a slam in almost 4 years, had lost her last 3 matches to Serena, her last 4 matches to Capriati, 4 of her last 5 matches with Venus. In her last year on tour she got spanked in one sided defeats to B level power players Hantuchova, Dokic, Myskina, Petrova, and Dementieva, in addition to her slew of losses to the really big hitters. Was she going to win another slam ever again in the future, when she hadnt in years already, and when the WTA was soon to get alot tougher with Serena becoming a real champion, and Henin, Clijsters, and Sharapova all emerging? The answer is a pretty obvious one and why she retired. Why exactly do you think she retired, since she was still at the top of the womens game?

That isnt to diss Hingis who I consider a great talent but the boom in power tennis ended her career. What do you propose did it if not. Cocaine?

SoBad 10-02-2012 03:30 PM

I thought Mandlikova looked good in white. That's probably why most of her success was on green grass.

jaggy 10-02-2012 03:48 PM

More like a Goolagong, great flair but flaky. Pam Shriver said she was the only pro player she ever heard of who changed her mind on a servewhen the toss was in the air.

SoBad 10-02-2012 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaggy (Post 6932071)
More like a Goolagong, great flair but flaky. Pam Shriver said she was the only pro player she ever heard of who changed her mind on a servewhen the toss was in the air.

I remember Goolagong from when we used to spend summers on a farm as kids. She was so beautiful that she gleamed.

dangalak 10-02-2012 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treblings (Post 6931815)
good guess. based on his last post, he´s probably in high school

Whereas you are a beacon of maturity. :?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi (Post 6932034)
Records are over a whole career. The reason Hingis has respectable records vs the Williams sisters is she built up huge leads in 1997-1998, began losing the majority of matches from 2000 onwards hence why they had already evened out by the time she left, and then quit without facing them in their best years when the head to head would have swung heavily in their favor. She has a losing record vs Serena even though she didnt play any matches vs Serena once Serena became "Serena" (everyone of their matches were from 97-early 2002 when Hingis reached all 9 of her career slam finals and Serena won 1 of her eventual 15 slams). Their last 3 matches were a 6-3, 6-2 destruction at the U.S Open, a 3 set win for Serena in wicked windy conditions with Serena compiling 66 unforced errors, and a 6-4, 6-0 beatdown in Miami. At that point she was no longer competitive with Serena, and Serena was only getting started. Tell me how do you think she would have fared vs the Serena Slam version of Serena, seeing how their 3 matches just preceding that went, LOL! She has a more clear losing record vs Davenport, and she lost 70% (9 of 13) of their matches from 98-2000, the period both were in their primes together, including a 5 match losing streak at one point. After the 2000 Australian Open where Hingis was crushed again by Davenport she began crying at the trophy presentation and blurted out staring at Lindsay "I dont know to play you." The respectable H2H (trailing 11-14) is again based on her dominance in 97 when Lindsay was not a grand slam caliber player. The Williams hit as hard and serve harder than Lindsay and are twice as mobile, and Henin and Clijsters hit almost as hard as Lindsay are also twice as mobile, so that is what a Hingis who had already plateaued and stoped improving would have faced had she continued on, and we see how much trouble she had with prime Lindsay. Not an idication of the future, but still worth noting, she has a 2-7 record vs Graf, and peak Hingis lost 2 of 3 matches to 30 year old nearly retired Graf who was a shadow of her old self in late 98-99. She lost 4 matches in a row to Capriati who isnt even one of the best power players. The only great power player she has a winning record against is Venus, but with almost every win coming before 2000, when Venus began winning slams, and Seles but Seles was an early bloomer who was already a has been who would never win another slam again by the time she and Hingis began playing.

At the time she retired in late 2002 she was no longer ranked in the top 10, had not won a slam in almost 4 years, had lost her last 3 matches to Serena, her last 4 matches to Capriati, 4 of her last 5 matches with Venus. In her last year on tour she got spanked in one sided defeats to B level power players Hantuchova, Dokic, Myskina, Petrova, and Dementieva, in addition to her slew of losses to the really big hitters. Was she going to win another slam ever again in the future, when she hadnt in years already, and when the WTA was soon to get alot tougher with Serena becoming a real champion, and Henin, Clijsters, and Sharapova all emerging? The answer is a pretty obvious one and why she retired. Why exactly do you think she retired, since she was still at the top of the womens game?

That isnt to diss Hingis who I consider a great talent but the boom in power tennis ended her career. What do you propose did it if not. Cocaine?

She said that her inability to keep up her fitness was the main reason. In the modern era she was forced to retrieve more balls than Jankovic. Yes she had nagging injuries that made it difficult to actually have a chance to survive, hence she quit.

I personally think that she was lucky to dominate tennis the way she did towards the end of the 90s, but the was also unlucky to have to deal with some of the strongest eras ever. (early 2000s) In a "regular era" (post 2003 until 2008/2009) she would win more than in the early 2000s, but less than in the late 90s. Hell, you KNOW she made 3 major finals after the trun of the millenium.

What makes me question the "power tennis ended Hingis" theory is the fact that with a little more steel, she would be sitting on 2 more slams (99 RG, 02 AO) and considering that Davenport played poorly in the final, probably the USO 00 as well. Now I know that mental toughness is important as well and cannot be ignored, however, if she was capable of putting herself in these positions in the first place, how much credibitly does your claim have? I mean for God's sake, when has Venus ever played better than 2000-2001? (especially during that winning streak in 2000) Hingis was capable of putting Venus on the ropes, even at her best. Clearly she had the tools to cause damage somehow, even when outgunned. Her problem was MENTAL weakness around that time (probably because of the RG debacle) not PHYSICAL weakness.

And make no mistake: I am not only bragging about NEAR victories here. She DID beat Venus in a thriller in the USO 99 (and even if not at her peak, she was still better than in 97) Then there was that great match in that Grand Slam Cup. (what an ice rink) Of course her demolition of Venus in the semis of the AO in 2001 also happened. While it is generally known that Venus wasn't playing well in that match, that is also eye opening: if playing below your standard makes you this vulnerable to Hingis, I wonder how often she would lose to Hingis AFTER 2003, when she became a lot more inconsistent.

Of course there is no proof that she would be competitive with Serena at her peak, but on the other hand, who was? Even Venus lost 4 straight grand slam finals against her. Capriati was the only one who made her look mortal. (and Henin on clay) Hingis losing to her wouldn't mean she couldn't handle power tennis. (or else, Venus could also not handle the power of the modern era :lol:) Serena would beat Hingis because she was BETTER not because she hit harder.

I think that with a tougher mind and with normal competition, there's no way that she doesn't win slams after 2003, when tennis started to become a little less crazy. Serena moving a lot worse, Venus not playing as well etc, that would be a weaker, but not weak era that would see Hingis win a lot in the world of power tennis. It is just an inferior version of it though. :)

NadalAgassi 10-02-2012 07:32 PM

The problem is Hingis was already on decline by the time she retired. I already mentioned her 2002 results, beatdowns to Hantuchova, Dokic, Dementieva, Myskina (ok this was a 3 setter but a bagel in the final set she ate), a pre prime Petrova, people she would outside of very rare occasion have handled comfortably from 97-2000. So not only was she starting to have alot of trouble with the best power hitters at first (1999-2000) but she was always looking past her prime by 2001, and even more by 2002. She was an early bloomer who hit her all time peak in 1997-1998 so I highly doubt regardless of the field she was winning any slams post 2003. Even the greatest players arent at their best for 10 or 12 years, and Hingis was a very early bloomer. Anyway the field post 2003 wasnt THAT weak, it was nothing like 09-2011 field. She did come back in 2006 and didnt come anywhere near winning a slam, and went 1-11 vs the then top 4 of Henin, Mauresmo, Sharapova, and Clijsters. Even with the Williams AWOL, and much less power type players at the top, she still wasnt a factor at that point. Had she not retired a few years would she have been doing any better in 2006? Who knows, the way she was looking in 2002, she might have needed to break to put in a last respectable year of pro tennis. She actually played better tennis in 06 and early 07 than she did most of 02 after all. The slam winners from 2003-2009 were Henin (7 times), Serena (5 times), Venus (3 times), Mauresmo (2 times), Clijsters (2 times) Sharapova (3 times), Kuznetsova (2 times), Ivanovic (1 time), Myskina (1 times). Hardly a free for all. By far the weakest of that group are Ivanovic and Myskina, Ivanovic who easily beat Hingis in the Canada final in 2006, and Myskina who bageled Hingis in her last match before her first retirement.

Now had Hingis been in her prime of 1997-2000, I agree she would have had a shot to win slams again post 2003, although even then I am not sure how many. The French is likely out with Henin and her own lack of success there even in her prime, maybe she could win in a year like the one Myskina won in, but who knows if she would be as lucky with her peaking moment of form or the draw. Wimbledon is probably out too, there were no weak winners there, and this is by far her worst surface even though she did win that one Wimbledon back in 97, had made marginal impact there in the years since. The U.S Open would be hard with Clijsters in 2005, Sharapova, in 2006, Henin in 2007, Serena in 2008 all playing so well to win, 2004 would have been her best shot there just like the French. Australian Open would have been a good annual shot for prime Hingis probably, nobody played unbelievably well to win there other than to some extent Serena in the 07 final round only, and Sharapova for parts of 2008. This is hypothetical prime Hingis I am speaking of though, so obviously the older, slowed down, regressing Hingis of reality would have had almost no shot of slams post 2003, barring sneaking out out randomly ala Myskina or Ivanovic perhaps.

As for your other points, yes Hingis should have won the 2002 Australian Open for sure, but that would have been her first slam in almost 3 years had she done it. Of the power players we agree she is likely owned by peak Serena (and lets not kid ourselves, Serena is great in many ways, but power is a HUGE part of the reason she would have the edge over Hingis, it is not like Hingis cant match her in many other areas). You are right she hung with prime Venus pretty well, but if your best matchup of the big power guns you are still mostly losing too, even if in tough matches, that doesnt bode well for your chances of slams. Venus was a better matchup for Hingis prime to prime than any of Serena, Davenport, or even Capriati, yet she still usually lost from 2000 onwards, so what are your chances of slams at that point if of the then big 4 the 1 you are doing best against you win 1 of 5 against (their 2000-2002 record), and your best efforts are usually losing in 3 sets. Davenport was a nightmare opponent for her when both were near their best in 98-2000. Capriati once she became a top player again was too, although in her case capatilizing on an already declining Hingis as well. So no she wasnt incompetent vs any power opponent that existed, you are right on that, but the point is once that power group emerged she was never going to come anywhere near her 97-early 99 level of success against where she won 5 of 9 slams, and for someone so young that is hard to cope with mentally. It was to the point another slam victory at any point would be a huge achievement for her, the very fact that probably caused her to suffer that epic choke in the 02 Australian final. In general she declined since with the power hitters it was looking like she was never going to be #1 again and might not even win another slam. Fitness questions and loss of motivation could be part of that too, but dont kid yourself and think her decreasing success vs the power hitters, and her own general decline in her own game and form, wasnt a huge factor in her retiring.


Prime Hingis in 2009-2012 could have won about 8-10 slams I will admit though, so if that is your point I agree. Then again that could be said for a ton of players Other than Serena there is nobody that any past great would fear today, absolutely nobody. Even Sharapova is nothing like her 2004-2008 level, and even then she was no dominant player, but a much more opressive one than today, but is as much or more a factor in a weaker field today.

dangalak 10-02-2012 08:01 PM

Obviously she wouldn't dominate jack, but she had several good opportunities to win majors even during the time the new breed emerged. For me, that is very impressive as it shows that she could have been a top player and slam winner even against the stiffest competition. Again, she didn't actually take several of her opportunities (RG 99, USO SF 00, AO 02), but give her a stronger mind, and she has beaten Graf in a RG final to complete her career grand slam JUST in the year when power tennis is on the rise, follows this up by actually closing out that match against Venus in that semi (which, if she beats LD is another slam or if she loses, is a victory during one of Venus best winning streaks) and that AO in 02. Follow that up with a bunch of final where she didn't really have a shot of winning, holding the #1 for a long time, the YEC in 00 and other small titles....who could honestly say she was crushed by the power game? She needed no further improvement in terms of game or power to achieve these things. Just being clutch...

In summary, I believe the power game prevented her from DOMINATING the game, while her mind prevented her from being a slam champion (after the RG)

NadalAgassi 10-02-2012 08:08 PM

Yes I agree, but in terms of what caused her to retire, you are saying it was fitness issues with all the work she had to do vs the power players, and I would suggest that is also what probably wore her down eventually and why she seemed to already be "past her prime" so young by 2001 and much moreso by 2002, so even that indicates indirectly the power game ended her career.

Even had she won the 99 French, which i agree she should have, it would have just been completing her huge run of success of major wins in 97-early 99 and if the 2002 Australian Open was her only future slam, it would seem like an unlikely final slam hurrah sort of thing, a dream ending, assuming she still ended up retiring that year, so even that wouldnt indicate much for her ability to keep winning slams in the new huge power era unless she had won the 2000 U.S Open too (which I dont think she would have, 2-6 vs Davenport in 99/2000 and never beat her in a major match again after the 97 U.S Open, and despite the overall winning H2H of Lindsay over Venus, this being another example of deceptive H2Hs at times, Davenport absolutely hated playing prime Venus much more than Hingis did so little wonder she played poorly vs her).

treblings 10-02-2012 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dangalak (Post 6932378)
Whereas you are a beacon of maturity. :?

touched a nerve there, didn´t i:)
why did you start a thread about Mandlikova when you really wanted to talk about Hingis?
anyway, you may continue


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