Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Former Pro Player Talk (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Where do you put Agassi on your GOAT list (if you have one)? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=442019)

Prisoner of Birth 10-03-2012 11:47 PM

Where do you put Agassi on your GOAT list (if you have one)?
 
Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Exact number would be nice but even a rough figure is fine.

I'd put him in my top 10, maybe around 7.

BobbyOne 10-04-2012 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prisoner of Birth (Post 6934712)
Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Exact number would be nice but even a rough figure is fine.

I'd put him in my top 10, maybe around 7.

Hope you forgive me: I rank Agassi around place 20.

0d1n 10-04-2012 05:26 AM

Nowhere near the top, that's for sure. And ... GOAT discussions are highly subjective and useless.

Limpinhitter 10-04-2012 05:54 AM

Agassi's ground stroke shotmaking was top 2-3 all time, IMO. He had the greatest backhand in tennis history and one of the best forehands. But, he didn't have the mobility to put that shotmaking to its best use. Agassi explains that he had a congenital lumbar spine defect that affected his mobility as he got older, which can clearly be seen. It seems to me that Agassi was hitting the ball better than ever in the late 90's, early 2000's, but, his mobility decline offset that. He compensated well by standing in close and cutting off angles. But, against players like Sampras and Federer, Agassi's lack of world class mobility was exposed.

1. Laver
2. Federer
3. Sampras
4. Borg
5. Gonzales
6. Nadal
7. Lendl
8. McEnroe
9. Connors
10. Agassi

PS: I would also say that Agassi's peak level of play might have been higher than Lendl, McEnroe or Connors. But, it was too sporatic, and not sufficiently sustained, to give him full credit for that. Compare Borg, whose career was short, but, it was virtually all peak with a ridiculous winning percentage, especially at the majors with 11 titles out of 27 attempts.

Nadal_Power 10-04-2012 06:06 AM

He must be in Top 10 for Open era, but for sure not in all time

pc1 10-04-2012 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne (Post 6934852)
Hope you forgive me: I rank Agassi around place 20.

That sounds probably right. He could be a bit higher or maybe lower. Let's see who is probably ahead of Agassi--Tilden, H L Doherty, Gonzalez, Rosewall, Laver, Sampras, Borg, Kramer, Nadal, Perry, Budge, Vines, Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, Hoad. Some may be somewhat arguable and some are no brainers ahead of Agassi.

Here's some that are also possibilities to be ahead of Agassi-Trabert, Djokovic (I think he's already better than Agassi at his peak but for the career, not yet), Sedgman (also probably better than Agassi at his peak and arguably for career), Emerson, Segura (I think he may be better overall if you take into account the strength of the Old Pro Tour ), Newcombe, Gimeno (was a great player but played on the Old Pro Tour), Ashe. Some of these players may be below Agassi in some ways but you can argue they were superior at top level.

For example Arthur Ashe won according to Vainqueurs 71 tournaments in his career. He probably won more. Ashe won the first US Open, Wimbledon and the Australian plus he was the 1975 WCT Championship which essentially was a major at that time. At his best Ashe was incredible with his huge flat first serve and his great wide swinging slice serve with power off both sides. Push come to shove I would pick Agassi as the overall better player but Ashe on a medium to fast court, if he was playing well in my opinion would be favored over Agassi.

TMF 10-04-2012 07:56 AM

I've him in the top 10. He's got the career slam, something other players besides Fed, Laver, Nadal can't touch !

TheRed 10-04-2012 08:46 AM

In overall effect on the tennis, he'd be top 3. In shot making, I'd agree with Limpinhitter, he's top 5. Just between the lines, as a pure tennis player, he may not be top 10. He was just too up and down fitness wise, focus, etc. BTW, he was by far my favorite tennis player growing up even though I emulated my game after Sampras because I thought Sampras was the better player.

Carsomyr 10-04-2012 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter (Post 6935021)
Agassi's ground stroke shotmaking was top 2-3 all time, IMO. He had the greatest backhand in tennis history and one of the best forehands. But, he didn't have the mobility to put that shotmaking to its best use. Agassi explains that he had a congenital lumbar spine defect that affected his mobility as he got older, which can clearly be seen. It seems to me that Agassi was hitting the ball better than ever in the late 90's, early 2000's, but, his mobility decline offset that. He compensated well by standing in close and cutting off angles. But, against players like Sampras and Federer, Agassi's lack of world class mobility was exposed.

1. Laver
2. Federer
3. Sampras
4. Borg
5. Gonzales
6. Nadal
7. Lendl
8. McEnroe
9. Connors
10. Agassi

PS: I would also say that Agassi's peak level of play might have been higher than Lendl, McEnroe or Connors. But, it was too sporatic, and not sufficiently sustained, to give him full credit for that. Compare Borg, whose career was short, but, it was virtually all peak with a ridiculous winning percentage, especially at the majors with 11 titles out of 27 attempts.

I'd hardly take offensive to a Lavertard listing Federer as second, but you don't have Rosewall in the top ten?

In any case, my list is hardly fixed, but my top ten (with Agassi outside) shapes like this:

1. Federer
2. Laver
3. Sampras
4. Gonzales
5. Borg
6. Nadal
7. Rosewall
8. Lendl
9. Connors
10. McEnroe
11. Agassi

Limpinhitter 10-04-2012 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carsomyr (Post 6935432)
I'd hardly take offensive to a Lavertard listing Federer as second, but you don't have Rosewall in the top ten?

Who would you put Rosewall above?

90's Clay 10-04-2012 09:35 AM

All time Top 20.. Open era top 10.. Hes still the only player with a "true" Grand slam IMO. Achieved it under the most polarized conditions in the history of the game.. Not like winning 3 slams on grass and one on clay, or achieving under todays slow homogenized condition where you could just be a garden variety, defender-baseline ball whacker and easily win everywheres.

That has to count for something HUGE IMO.

pc1 10-04-2012 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMF (Post 6935286)
I've him in the top 10. He's got the career slam, something other players besides Fed, Laver, Nadal can't touch !

Emerson, Budge, Perry are players who won all the majors that you missed. Tilden won the World Hardcourt on clay which was the equivalent of the French.

Alchemy-Z 10-04-2012 09:40 AM

Agassi #8 -

pc1 10-04-2012 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter (Post 6935021)
Agassi's ground stroke shotmaking was top 2-3 all time, IMO. He had the greatest backhand in tennis history and one of the best forehands. But, he didn't have the mobility to put that shotmaking to its best use. Agassi explains that he had a congenital lumbar spine defect that affected his mobility as he got older, which can clearly be seen. It seems to me that Agassi was hitting the ball better than ever in the late 90's, early 2000's, but, his mobility decline offset that. He compensated well by standing in close and cutting off angles. But, against players like Sampras and Federer, Agassi's lack of world class mobility was exposed.

1. Laver
2. Federer
3. Sampras
4. Borg
5. Gonzales
6. Nadal
7. Lendl
8. McEnroe
9. Connors
10. Agassi

PS: I would also say that Agassi's peak level of play might have been higher than Lendl, McEnroe or Connors. But, it was too sporatic, and not sufficiently sustained, to give him full credit for that. Compare Borg, whose career was short, but, it was virtually all peak with a ridiculous winning percentage, especially at the majors with 11 titles out of 27 attempts.

But Limpin, Agassi never had one year in which he won 90% of his matches. Lendl, McEnroe and Connors AVERAGED winning over 90% of their matches over five years. That's true dominance. And I do think for one match a guy like McEnroe's best was superior to Andre's best. Agassi had super duper groundies but his movement wasn't that good compared to other greats. He looks flashy when he hits those fantastic winners of his off service return but he also got aced more than some other great returners and a number of players like Murray would tie him for percentage of return games won. Some had higher percentages of return games won lifetime.

But I'll give you the chance that Agassi's best MAY (maybe not also) be better for one match than the ones you mentioned.

Carsomyr 10-04-2012 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Limpinhitter (Post 6935440)
Who would you put Rosewall above?

See my above list - above Lendl, Connors, McEnroe, and Agassi.

NadalAgassi 10-04-2012 10:09 AM

My top 10 of all time:

1. Laver
2. Gonzales
3. Federer
4. Sampras
5. Nadal
6. Rosewall
7. Borg
8. Tilden
9. Budge
10. Vines
11. Connors
12. Lendl
13. McEnroe
14. Agassi
15. Djokovic

I could never leave Rosewall outside the top 10. Way too much longevity as a persistent non ending top 2 or 3 player in the World, and a period of a few years as the best player too (which someone like Agassi sadly doesnt have).

kiki 10-04-2012 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prisoner of Birth (Post 6934712)
Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Exact number would be nice but even a rough figure is fine.

I'd put him in my top 10, maybe around 7.

top 20-25 is my bet

Surecatch 10-04-2012 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prisoner of Birth (Post 6934712)
Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Exact number would be nice but even a rough figure is fine.

I'd put him in my top 10, maybe around 7.

In the top ten. I don't include pre-Open era players....I have no base for evaluating Tilden, Pancho, etc. against modern players, so with that in mind, Andre would make the top ten...probably 7-10ish. I always forget someone when I do this, but quickly, it still goes something like this:

1. Federer
2. Laver
3. Sampras
4. Nadal
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi
8. McEnroe
9. Conners
10.Becker.

My list is a little iffy down in the second half, but it's "about" right, for the purpose of getting a number for AA.

Gizo 10-04-2012 11:40 AM

As far as the open era goes, he is ahead of Wilander, Edberg and Becker, but behind, Connors, Lendl and McEnroe.

Nadal_Power 10-04-2012 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizo (Post 6935748)
As far as the open era goes, he is ahead of Wilander, Edberg and Becker, but behind, Connors, Lendl and McEnroe.

Spot on, Jimmy Ivan and John achieved more


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:37 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse