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-   -   Strategy or delusion? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445032)

smarulanda 11-06-2012 01:24 PM

Strategy or delusion?
 
So I was playing a flex league singles match last night; it was a bit chilly and I'm usually slow to warm up so I go down 0-3 in the first set. I finally start to get my groove going and proceed to play some really great tennis and take the first set 6-3.

The second set begins and I'm still playing well, very well, in fact I'm hitting some very deep and consistent shots, however my opponent now begins to refuse to chase my winners and any shot I hit that lands within a couple of inches of the line he calls out. I try and not let this phase me and work hard to hit great shots that land within an obvious margin. Unfortunately with so many points unceremoniously called against me I end up losing the second set tiebreak 9-7.

I quickly shake the set off and get up to 3-1 in the third set. It's in the middle of my service game and I hit a clean ace down the T. This was clearly 6 inches in; the guy calls it out. I walk up a bit and say "come on, man let's play fair". He replies "are you gonna serve?" I am taken aback for a second, I didn't exactly understand what he was implying. So I say "my serve was definitely in, let's be gentlemen"; he replies menacingly "serve or I'm going to claim the point, I haven't said anything about all your calls".

This completely threw me off. He was accusing me of making bad calls! I was dumbfounded, as I had been playing clean and fair tennis the entire match, despite his less than sportsmanlike conduct. He was a big guy so I wasn't about to get into any type of argument, I just shook my head and took my second serve. I couldn't shake the nerve this guy had though... I ended up losing in the tiebreak 10-8.

It was definitely a winnable match for me, but I had trouble playing safe enough tennis that he wouldn't be able to cheat me out of points. I also couldn't get this guys terrible attitude out of my head... turning the cheater table on me like that.

Who's done this/had it done to them? Had he at all questioned any of my previous calls, I would have gladly shown him the ball marks; but I think he knew I was playing fair and used this as a mental tactic because it definitely did shake me a bit. Or perhaps he was deluded and actually thought I was making many bad calls against him.

/rant

LuckyR 11-06-2012 01:38 PM

None of us have had this experience. It is just too weird.

kylebarendrick 11-06-2012 03:50 PM

Most people believe that their calls are always correct and that any close ball their opponent calls "out" was an intentional hook.

TomT 11-06-2012 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smarulanda (Post 6999016)
So I was playing a flex league singles match last night; it was a bit chilly and I'm usually slow to warm up so I go down 0-3 in the first set. I finally start to get my groove going and proceed to play some really great tennis and take the first set 6-3.

The second set begins and I'm still playing well, very well, in fact I'm hitting some very deep and consistent shots, however my opponent now begins to refuse to chase my winners and any shot I hit that lands within a couple of inches of the line he calls out. I try and not let this phase me and work hard to hit great shots that land within an obvious margin. Unfortunately with so many points unceremoniously called against me I end up losing the second set tiebreak 9-7.

I quickly shake the set off and get up to 3-1 in the third set. It's in the middle of my service game and I hit a clean ace down the T. This was clearly 6 inches in; the guy calls it out. I walk up a bit and say "come on, man let's play fair". He replies "are you gonna serve?" I am taken aback for a second, I didn't exactly understand what he was implying. So I say "my serve was definitely in, let's be gentlemen"; he replies menacingly "serve or I'm going to claim the point, I haven't said anything about all your calls".

This completely threw me off. He was accusing me of making bad calls! I was dumbfounded, as I had been playing clean and fair tennis the entire match, despite his less than sportsmanlike conduct. He was a big guy so I wasn't about to get into any type of argument, I just shook my head and took my second serve. I couldn't shake the nerve this guy had though... I ended up losing in the tiebreak 10-8.

It was definitely a winnable match for me, but I had trouble playing safe enough tennis that he wouldn't be able to cheat me out of points. I also couldn't get this guys terrible attitude out of my head... turning the cheater table on me like that.

Who's done this/had it done to them? Had he at all questioned any of my previous calls, I would have gladly shown him the ball marks; but I think he knew I was playing fair and used this as a mental tactic because it definitely did shake me a bit. Or perhaps he was deluded and actually thought I was making many bad calls against him.

/rant

The way you describe it, he sounds like a cheater. So, what might you learn from this experience? A couple of suggestions are: 1) the realization, and acceptance, that there are people like this on every level of tennis, 2) use this experience as motivation to get good enough that you don't have to worry about false line calls from *****s.

Personally, I've never had an experience like this. But at my current competitive level nobody is good enough that line calls are going to make any difference. :) What is your competitive level?

tennis tom 11-06-2012 04:46 PM

The guy's a cheater, a bully, delusional and beats his wife if she's still living. He's the kind of guy you hire to drown kittens. I don't know a thing about flex league but assume it's matches made up through a computer--tennis and computers don't mix!


What do you get if you win flex league? Unless it's a trip to Hawaii why bother? You'd be better off hanging out at a public tennis center if you don't want to join a club--or hit against a wall or a basket of serves. That "Let's be gentlemen", line was pretty funny though. If you want competition sign up for a tournament where at least you have tournament officials to deal with cheaters. You have my condolences. This was not tennis.

TomT 11-06-2012 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis tom (Post 6999354)
The guy's a cheater, a bully, delusional and beats his wife if she's still living. He's the kind of guy you hire to drown kittens. I don't know a thing about flex league but assume it's matches made up through a computer--tennis and computers don't mix!


What do you get if you win flex league? Unless it's a trip to Hawaii why bother? You'd be better off hanging out at a public tennis center if you don't want to join a club--or hit against a wall or a basket of serves. That "Let's be gentlemen", line was pretty funny though. If you want competition sign up for a tournament where at least you have tournament officials to deal with cheaters. You have my condolences. This was not tennis.

"He's the kind of guy you hire to drown kittens." :) Maybe he was abused as a child, or just a natural born sociopath or psychopath. Anyway, not the sort of person I signed up to my flex league to meet ... no matter how good a tennis player he might be.

Regarding flex leagues, I disagree with you somewhat. My experience as a member of Tennis Fort Lauderdale (an affiliate of the Tennis League Network) has been totally enjoyable. It's a flex league. Computers have nothing to do with setting up and scheduling matches, which is totally the responsibility of and in control of the participating players.

tennis tom 11-06-2012 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomT (Post 6999380)

...Regarding flex leagues, I disagree with you somewhat. My experience as a member of Tennis Fort Lauderdale (an affiliate of the Tennis League Network) has been totally enjoyable. It's a flex league. Computers have nothing to do with setting up and scheduling matches, which is totally the responsibility of and in control of the participating players.

I don't know nothin' about flex leagues, and maybe once in a while you encounter a whack job like this creep just like you do anywhere else in life like on the hi-ways or waiting in line at strip clubs. Report him to whoever has authority over the league and maybe with enough compliants in his file he can be banned.

I did have a great time at the Lauderdale TC for a week while traveling through FL. They had a match making service and a lot of serious players. If I were there I would join that club and get all the tennis I needed.

Darkhors 11-07-2012 05:00 AM

I'm not condoning cheating to win, but this is a great way to stop the cheating altogether. When he "obviously" calls an in ball out and there's no changing his mind, on the next point as soon as his ball hits the court, you call it out, grab the ball and move to the other side of the court to serve. He'll undoubtedly say something to you and then you can say, "if you're going to call my in balls out, then I'm going to do the same so we're playing on even ground". That should shut him up for the remainder of the match.

Some people are just so delusional that it doesn't matter what you do they're going to cheat just because. At that point, just pick up and leave as it's not worth your time.

DH

gmatheis 11-07-2012 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkhors (Post 7000011)
I'm not condoning cheating to win, but this is a great way to stop the cheating altogether. When he "obviously" calls an in ball out and there's no changing his mind, on the next point as soon as his ball hits the court, you call it out, grab the ball and move to the other side of the court to serve. He'll undoubtedly say something to you and then you can say, "if you're going to call my in balls out, then I'm going to do the same so we're playing on even ground". That should shut him up for the remainder of the match.

Some people are just so delusional that it doesn't matter what you do they're going to cheat just because. At that point, just pick up and leave as it's not worth your time.

DH

You should try to get a lead if you can and then call every shot he hits out.

treblings 11-07-2012 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smarulanda (Post 6999016)
So I was playing a flex league singles match last night; it was a bit chilly and I'm usually slow to warm up so I go down 0-3 in the first set. I finally start to get my groove going and proceed to play some really great tennis and take the first set 6-3.

The second set begins and I'm still playing well, very well, in fact I'm hitting some very deep and consistent shots, however my opponent now begins to refuse to chase my winners and any shot I hit that lands within a couple of inches of the line he calls out. I try and not let this phase me and work hard to hit great shots that land within an obvious margin. Unfortunately with so many points unceremoniously called against me I end up losing the second set tiebreak 9-7.

I quickly shake the set off and get up to 3-1 in the third set. It's in the middle of my service game and I hit a clean ace down the T. This was clearly 6 inches in; the guy calls it out. I walk up a bit and say "come on, man let's play fair". He replies "are you gonna serve?" I am taken aback for a second, I didn't exactly understand what he was implying. So I say "my serve was definitely in, let's be gentlemen"; he replies menacingly "serve or I'm going to claim the point, I haven't said anything about all your calls".

This completely threw me off. He was accusing me of making bad calls! I was dumbfounded, as I had been playing clean and fair tennis the entire match, despite his less than sportsmanlike conduct. He was a big guy so I wasn't about to get into any type of argument, I just shook my head and took my second serve. I couldn't shake the nerve this guy had though... I ended up losing in the tiebreak 10-8.

It was definitely a winnable match for me, but I had trouble playing safe enough tennis that he wouldn't be able to cheat me out of points. I also couldn't get this guys terrible attitude out of my head... turning the cheater table on me like that.

Who's done this/had it done to them? Had he at all questioned any of my previous calls, I would have gladly shown him the ball marks; but I think he knew I was playing fair and used this as a mental tactic because it definitely did shake me a bit. Or perhaps he was deluded and actually thought I was making many bad calls against him.

/rant

sounds like an idiot. one question, you said you would have shown him the ball marks. did you ask him for ball marks on his decisions or did you accept his obviously wrong calls?

Irvin 11-07-2012 05:14 AM

There are two sides to every argument and we have only heard your side. Doesn't matter, YOU have to learn to control your temperament on the court and you let what you may have thought were bad calls control it.

TimothyO 11-07-2012 05:27 AM

I live in Atlanta and during a League Tennis match ran into a guy like this. He developed a reputation in our division for blatant cheating and others said he was far worse than in our match. He was an older guy and had trouble keeping his cool and energy up.

I easily winning the first set and he started calling anything close to a line out. He would take a long pause, walk slowly to where the ball bounced, and say, "I guess I'll have to call that out" as if he were reluctantly calling the ball out and really, really wanted to give me the point.

I left the court and gave him the match when on game point he called a soft drop shot out because he couldn't get to it. When I very calmly explained that he coould have the match and to have a great season he grew agitated and claimed the ball left a mark and it was clearly out, yadda, yadda, yadda. It was on my home court, it was perfectly dry, it was sunny, and the shot couldn't be any softer. It left no mark and I was next to the point of bounce and he was as far cross court as one could be which is why he couldn't get to the ball.

Others in the division said his cheating got worse the more he was losing. I simply didn't go that far with him.

In the future I'll handle blatant cheaters differently. As another TT member advised the best apporach is to simply start calling every shot of the cheater out. When he protests explain that it's "my call" and if he's going cheat I can call good shots out too and that a better alternative is for him to stop cheating and just play the match.

It needs to be blatant too. It's very easy to make mistakes and tough to see from the far side of the court.

During a recent ITF juniors tournament here in Atlanta the male players frequently missed calls, especially on serve. And they frequently accused one another of cheating. But even officials can be very wrong. I watched the boys (high school aged) semi-finals and one of the chair umpires was terrible. He called out the wrong score three times and was corrected by the players. He also missed obvious calls which upset the players and drew looks of shock from the spectators. On more than one occassion a player looked embarrassed as his opponent argued an obviously bad call by the chair but he wouldn't budge. Finally a spectator called in an ITF official to monitor the situation.

treblings 11-07-2012 05:33 AM

friend of mine did that once. he felt cheated with a call and told his opponent: "whereever your next ball lands, iŽll call it out"
opponents next serve landed in the middle of the service box and he called it out. nearly ended in a fistfight, we had to break it up

smarulanda 11-07-2012 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treblings (Post 7000059)
friend of mine did that once. he felt cheated with a call and told his opponent: "whereever your next ball lands, iŽll call it out"
opponents next serve landed in the middle of the service box and he called it out. nearly ended in a fistfight, we had to break it up

This is exactly what kept me from doing that, it was a night match at his courts with no one around, he already seemed like the hot-headed type, so I wasn't about to go and **** him off like that.

I do appreciate you guys entertaining my plight, though.

treblings 11-07-2012 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smarulanda (Post 7000108)
This is exactly what kept me from doing that, it was a night match at his courts with no one around, he already seemed like the hot-headed type, so I wasn't about to go and **** him off like that.

I do appreciate you guys entertaining my plight, though.

weŽve all had similar experiences, though yours may have been more extreme than most. did you ask him to show you the ball marks?:)

tennis tom 11-07-2012 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smarulanda (Post 7000108)
T

I do appreciate you guys entertaining my plight, though.

No problem, you're plight was very entertaining. Next time cheat 'em back, I've found that works real well--their inferiority complex tells them you are better at that then they are too and they stop cheating--works every time!

NTRPolice 11-07-2012 06:41 PM

I've said it before and ill say it again:

The best response to cheating is not to cheat back. I think the whole concept of "im going to call his next ball out no matter what" is just childish and disingenuous.

You can get back at them in a lot of ways without blatantly cheating.

It's easy to beat a "powder keg". All you have to do is light the fuse and step back. Keep your cool. They'll explode on their own.

Very few players actually get better when they get angry. Very few.

Most of the time people lose to cheaters because they dont know how to respond. They either cheat back causing a mutual explosion or curl up into a ball and lay in the corner of the court. Their excuse: "The other guy cheated."

Fuji 11-07-2012 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice (Post 7001493)
I've said it before and ill say it again:

The best response to cheating is not to cheat back. I think the whole concept of "im going to call his next ball out no matter what" is just childish and disingenuous.

You can get back at them in a lot of ways without blatantly cheating.

It's easy to beat a "powder keg". All you have to do is light the fuse and step back. Keep your cool. They'll explode on their own.

Very few players actually get better when they get angry. Very few.

Most of the time people lose to cheaters because they dont know how to respond. They either cheat back causing a mutual explosion or curl up into a ball and lay in the corner of the court. Their excuse: "The other guy cheated."

I actually fully agree with you. Good post!

-Fuji

Alchemy-Z 11-09-2012 05:11 AM

They can't call it out if the ball hits them! :twisted:

LuckyR 11-09-2012 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice (Post 7001493)
I've said it before and ill say it again:

The best response to cheating is not to cheat back. I think the whole concept of "im going to call his next ball out no matter what" is just childish and disingenuous.

You can get back at them in a lot of ways without blatantly cheating.

It's easy to beat a "powder keg". All you have to do is light the fuse and step back. Keep your cool. They'll explode on their own.

Very few players actually get better when they get angry. Very few.

Most of the time people lose to cheaters because they dont know how to respond. They either cheat back causing a mutual explosion or curl up into a ball and lay in the corner of the court. Their excuse: "The other guy cheated."


Great description of your advice on what not to do. What do you do?


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