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-   -   Serve the Jay Berger way? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445044)

dlam 11-06-2012 03:37 PM

Serve the Jay Berger way?
 
Jay Berger has simple but effective way of serving.
He basically starts the serve motion by putting the racket over the right shoulder

I thinking this is so odd, he gets to the back scratch position right away .

Then I thinking, all good servers look slightly different in their deliveries.

However...

All good servers look the same from about the trophy position until contact , so why not simplify the serve the Jay Berger way?

i thinking this may be an effective way to learn and practice the service motion by fast forward to the backscratch position at the vert start of the serve.

As one gets more coordinated with their motion and rhythm then one may wish to abandon this.

Thoughts?

i know some of you dont like the BS position.

WildVolley 11-06-2012 04:16 PM

If you try to serve out of the racket drop, you lose energy that is created by the stretch you get from going from trophy to the drop. Some of this is added by the legs pushing off the ground and making the drop greater.

mikeler 11-06-2012 04:19 PM

He did it because of shoulder issues. I'd only consider using it in a similar situation.

SystemicAnomaly 11-06-2012 05:13 PM

Could not find any videos of Berger's serve motion. Did he start the racket from the trophy position? Did he start with the throat of the racket resting on the clavicle of his serving shoulder? Some other variation?

SFrazeur 11-06-2012 05:58 PM

Never seen his serve and could not find video nor pictures.

-SF

dlam 11-06-2012 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeler (Post 6999311)
He did it because of shoulder issues. I'd only consider using it in a similar situation.

Really?
When was this? As a junior?
I recall watching him win ATP tournament serving this way at his prime

System
Yes essentially resting the throat of the racket over his right clavicle to start the serve motion

TomT 11-06-2012 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlam (Post 6999246)
Jay Berger has simple but effective way of serving.
He basically starts the serve motion by putting the racket over the right shoulder

I thinking this is so odd, he gets to the back scratch position right away .

Then I thinking, all good servers look slightly different in their deliveries.

However...

All good servers look the same from about the trophy position until contact , so why not simplify the serve the Jay Berger way?

i thinking this may be an effective way to learn and practice the service motion by fast forward to the backscratch position at the vert start of the serve.

As one gets more coordinated with their motion and rhythm then one may wish to abandon this.

Thoughts?

i know some of you dont like the BS position.

Please post some videos. Otherwise it's difficult to know exactly what you mean. Also, I don't know what "BS position" means. But am interested to learn. Thanks.

LeeD 11-06-2012 06:32 PM

He prepped just like you and I.
Brought rackethand directly back to trophy, racket pointing at sky...like normal.
Then he tossed and rose up to hit...pretty hard, like 132 mph.
Yeah, shoulder issues, so bad he said he would quit tennis.

dlam 11-06-2012 06:53 PM

Here a thread on Jay
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=395846

There a link in there showing his funky looking serve playing B Becker at the French

rufus_smith 11-06-2012 07:36 PM

Nice find. In there is the only video I've ever seen of Berger serve. It's just one serve versus Becker, btw, because it started raining. I served the Berger way for a few weeks in the summer because of temporary injuries and it worked fine. It helped me focus more on the ball toss since the hitting arm is already set. You might lose a little maximum possible serve speed but not much. You gain serve reliability I think. Heck, I may go back to it.

http://www.ina.fr/sport/tennis/video...-pluie.fr.html

2ndServe 11-06-2012 08:16 PM

I highly doubt Jay ever served 130ish with that motion.

NLBwell 11-06-2012 09:33 PM

I don't remember what his serve speed was, but it was not considered a weak serve.

I've served like that during several of my shoulder and elbow injuries.

dlam 11-06-2012 10:00 PM

I brought up this topic, cause Berger's serve looked unusual but he still got the job done reasonable well.
Similarly people talk about how strange Jim Furyk golf swing's compare to the other classic golf swings but he gets the job done and wins too.
The thing I find unusual in Berger's serve is he lacks a windup with his racquet arm yet still manage to get good pace on his serve.
I believe he gets that pace by his natural rhythm
He gets weight shift and momentum as you can see he finishes into the court after he serves.
In general I have observed the deeper one lands into the court with the foot after striking the ball the more pace the ball has if cleanly struke.

LeeD 11-07-2012 09:26 AM

Jay Berger was a good athlete, was at least Fed height, and had normal strokes except the serve caused by his shoulder problems.

I Heart Thomas Muster 11-08-2012 09:40 PM

Agassi did something similar in 1993 due to a wrist injury.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpjys2heNA

And Todd Martin after his ATP career (35 seconds in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-5aycYgifs

SystemicAnomaly 11-10-2012 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rufus_smith (Post 6999560)
Nice find. In there is the only video I've ever seen of Berger serve. It's just one serve versus Becker, btw, because it started raining. I served the Berger way for a few weeks in the summer because of temporary injuries and it worked fine. It helped me focus more on the ball toss since the hitting arm is already set. You might lose a little maximum possible serve speed but not much. You gain serve reliability I think. Heck, I may go back to it.

http://www.ina.fr/sport/tennis/video...-pluie.fr.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlam (Post 6999483)
...
Yes essentially resting the throat of the racket over his right clavicle to start the serve motion

I teach a variation of this Berger serve to novice servers and to intermediate servers who have a significant hitch when attempting a fuller motion. I started with the same variation when I taught myself to serve with my opposite arm -- I normally serve lefty but have developed a pretty decent righty serve.

The thing that I do not like about the Berger serve is that he starts with his right elbow forward. It should be pulled back -- as if pulling back an arrow in a bow. In his start position, he does not employ a pectoral stretch (due to his inferior elbow position). The Serve Doctor (implicitly) talks about this elbow position. (However, in this spring-loaded serve, the server uses a variation of the abbreviated takeback rather than starting with the racket throat starting on the clavicle).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88&t=1m56s


I use this "sans takeback" serve as part of a progression. This enables the server to focus on the toss and on the upward swing of the racket head from the so-called BS ("back scratch") position up to the contact. Note: I am one of those who is not fond of the backscratch (BS) terminology -- some servers get the wrong idea by trying to "scratch the back".

After the shoulder/clavicle serve is mastered, the next step in the progression is to develop a serve with the racket starting the "trophy position" -- the elbow starts with a 90 degree band and it (the elbow) is pulled back and is directly in line with the shoulder tilt.

I currently use this "trophy" serve for my right-handed serve. With this serve variation, the server should make certain that they achieve a good (deep) racket head drop (what some refer to as the backscratch position). Many servers do not achieve an adequate racket head drop.

= Trophy position

"Backscratch" position:

SystemicAnomaly 11-10-2012 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Heart Thomas Muster (Post 7003743)
Agassi did something similar in 1993 due to a wrist injury.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCpjys2heNA

And Todd Martin after his ATP career (35 seconds in)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-5aycYgifs

This is pretty much what I meant by the "trophy" serve in the previous post. It is very nearly the same as an "abbreviated takeback" serve. Often, with the trophy serve, the server will pause/hesitate a bit at the trophy position. OTOH, the motion is a tad more continuous with the abbreviated takeback serve. With some implementations, it is difficult to make a distinction between the two variations.

luishcorreia 11-11-2012 04:20 AM

I have used this trophy serve trying to correct a glitch in my serve. I actually didnt do well the serve trophy position - the elbow would always be too close to the body.

This trophy serve can be used as a progression when teaching or to break the serve apart to isolate a specific problem. Some pros on the ATP and WTA serve like this.

dlam 11-16-2012 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 7005641)
This is pretty much what I meant by the "trophy" serve in the previous post. It is very nearly the same as an "abbreviated takeback" serve. Often, with the trophy serve, the server will pause/hesitate a bit at the trophy position. OTOH, the motion is a tad more continuous with the abbreviated takeback serve. With some implementations, it is difficult to make a distinction between the two variations.

Then those video abr serve motion of Aggasi and Martin is that of starting at the trophy position
Berger looks a lot different
He seems to dangling the racket in a BS position to start and has no trophy position at all during the serve
No trophy position in the serve ?
How is that possible?

NTexas 11-16-2012 02:24 PM

This is a good way to teach someone to serve. have them start in the back scratch position because it takes a few steps out. then as they get better have them do a full serve.


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