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seseli 11-08-2012 08:32 AM

permanent fixture call
 
There is a tree reaching over the middle section of one of our courts. Sometimes a lob happens to pass through the leaves/branches and the ball, without much change in direction, though perhaps slowed down a bit, continues to the other side of the court.
I assume the tree is a permanent fixture and the player who made the lob loses the point. What I do not know for sure is who has the right to call it. Do you have to call it on yourselves like a double bounce or net touch, or any player can call it like a serve net cord? I expect the first because it results in a loss of point and not just a let, but would like to hear your confirmation.

That was the hard rules. But I would also like to have your opinion on a common sense solution in a friendly match. Imagine that your opponent sends the lob through the leaves and it is clear that you both saw and heard the contact. If the opponent does not make any call (here I assume it is true that you cannot make the call yourself), you continue playing. Do you try to explain the rule after the exchange or let it slide? And, if your opponent calls it and is about to give you the point, do you take it or offer a let (as we are in a friendly)? And, if offered such a let, do you accept or refuse?

BHiC 11-08-2012 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seseli (Post 7002511)
There is a tree reaching over the middle section of one of our courts. Sometimes a lob happens to pass through the leaves/branches and the ball, without much change in direction, though perhaps slowed down a bit, continues to the other side of the court.
I assume the tree is a permanent fixture and the player who made the lob loses the point. What I do not know for sure is who has the right to call it. Do you have to call it on yourselves like a double bounce or net touch, or any player can call it like a serve net cord? I expect the first because it results in a loss of point and not just a let, but would like to hear your confirmation.

That was the hard rules. But I would also like to have your opinion on a common sense solution in a friendly match. Imagine that your opponent sends the lob through the leaves and it is clear that you both saw and heard the contact. If the opponent does not make any call (here I assume it is true that you cannot make the call yourself), you continue playing. Do you try to explain the rule after the exchange or let it slide? And, if your opponent calls it and is about to give you the point, do you take it or offer a let (as we are in a friendly)? And, if offered such a let, do you accept or refuse?

To the best of my knowledge, the tree is a permanent fixture, and it would be the exact same as a ball hitting the roof while playing indoors. The person who hit the shot must call it on themselves, just like on a double bounce call, or a call about touching the net.

What I would do in the situation is mention to the guy that if we were playing in a USTA match, then that would be my point, but I would let it slide in practice (assuming the trajectory of the ball is not changed very much).

If the opponent stops play and offers the point, then I see no problem in taking the point, since that is the rule.

If I was offered a let, I would say not to worry about it, that you could have the point. If you insist that a let should be played, then I would play a let.

jonnythan 11-08-2012 08:46 AM

I hate when people offer lets in league matches when the rules don't allow it.

Either enforce the rule or don't. Don't make up contradictory new ones.

seseli 11-08-2012 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHiC (Post 7002531)
To the best of my knowledge, the tree is a permanent fixture, and it would be the exact same as a ball hitting the roof while playing indoors. The person who hit the shot must call it on themselves, just like on a double bounce call, or a call about touching the net.

What I would do in the situation is mention to the guy that if we were playing in a USTA match, then that would be my point, but I would let it slide in practice (assuming the trajectory of the ball is not changed very much).

If the opponent stops play and offers the point, then I see no problem in taking the point, since that is the rule.

If I was offered a let, I would say not to worry about it, that you could have the point. If you insist that a let should be played, then I would play a let.

Thanks, that sounds like a good solution. Was not sure what is the custom in such a situation as it does not happen so often.

seseli 11-08-2012 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnythan (Post 7002550)
I hate when people offer lets in league matches when the rules don't allow it.

Either enforce the rule or don't. Don't make up contradictory new ones.

OK, I can see your point. I'm not a fan of lets either, it is just that in friendly matches I sometimes get offered some in unusual situations like this, so it makes me think I should offer some as well from time to time. :)

woodrow1029 11-08-2012 09:20 AM

Just because a ball hits a permanent fixture doesn't mean that the player who hit the ball has to call it against himself. I think that the player who the ball is traveling to is responsible to make the call, just as the player who the ball is traveling to is responsible for making the call when a ball is hit through the net, or when the opponent hits a ball that bounces before it comes over the net.

OrangePower 11-08-2012 09:20 AM

That's an interesting scenario... tree is a permanent fixture as others have pointed out; however I wonder if there are times when you can't easily tell if the ball actually brushed a leaf, or passed through cleanly? Also, what if you lose sight of the ball as it's going through the tree; even if it does not end up hitting any leaves, is the fact that your vision is obstructed grounds for anything?

Funny and true story: I once hit a bird in flight! Big pelican or whatever, flying maybe 30 ft over the court as I hit a lob; ball hit the bird and fell into the court. We had no idea what the correct call was at the time, so we just played a let (after we recovered from laughing) :-)

seseli 11-08-2012 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodrow1029 (Post 7002618)
Just because a ball hits a permanent fixture doesn't mean that the player who hit the ball has to call it against himself. I think that the player who the ball is traveling to is responsible to make the call, just as the player who the ball is traveling to is responsible for making the call when a ball is hit through the net, or when the opponent hits a ball that bounces before it comes over the net.

Oh, I didn't even have a clue that it is the opponent who should call a ball that passed through the net :shock: This has only happened to me once that I hit the ball through the hole below the tape. The opponent was confused why I stopped play after what he thought was a netcord. He didn't quite believe me until I shoved my hand through the hole in the net :)

Anyway, if the opponent hasn't seen it and you have, you are still obliged to call it, same as with a missed out call, aren't you?

seseli 11-08-2012 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangePower (Post 7002619)
That's an interesting scenario... tree is a permanent fixture as others have pointed out; however I wonder if there are times when you can't easily tell if the ball actually brushed a leaf, or passed through cleanly? Also, what if you lose sight of the ball as it's going through the tree; even if it does not end up hitting any leaves, is the fact that your vision is obstructed grounds for anything?

Funny and true story: I once hit a bird in flight! Big pelican or whatever, flying maybe 30 ft over the court as I hit a lob; ball hit the bird and fell into the court. We had no idea what the correct call was at the time, so we just played a let (after we recovered from laughing) :-)

Oh my, at first I thought it was the bird what fell into the court and was thinking how cruel you were laughing instead of caring about the poor bird! Shouldn't read so fast :oops:

In our case there was a clear rustling among the leaves, but I can imagine it to be unclear other times. Also in badminton we sometimes wondered if the shuttle touched the ceiling just very slightly or not...

woodrow1029 11-08-2012 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seseli (Post 7002650)
Oh, I didn't even have a clue that it is the opponent who should call a ball that passed through the net :shock: This has only happened to me once that I hit the ball through the hole below the tape. The opponent was confused why I stopped play after what he thought was a netcord. He didn't quite believe me until I shoved my hand through the hole in the net :)

Anyway, if the opponent hasn't seen it and you have, you are still obliged to call it, same as with a missed out call, aren't you?

Yes.

10 char

Cindysphinx 11-08-2012 10:49 AM

For a friendly match, there is an easy solution.

At the beginning of the match, you say, "Hey, Steve. See that tree limb? The rules say that it's a permanent fixture so whoever hit the ball into the tree loses the point. How do you want to handle it? Do you want to just ignore it and keep playing, or do you want to follow that rule?"

woodrow1029 11-08-2012 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx (Post 7002783)
For a friendly match, there is an easy solution.

At the beginning of the match, you say, "Hey, Steve. See that tree limb? The rules say that it's a permanent fixture so whoever hit the ball into the tree loses the point. How do you want to handle it? Do you want to just ignore it and keep playing, or do you want to follow that rule?"

Sorry, but why would you ever do the bolded part?

sureshs 11-08-2012 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodrow1029 (Post 7002788)
Sorry, but why would you ever do the bolded part?

If the ball drops into the court after hitting the tree, play it as usual.

OrangePower 11-08-2012 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seseli (Post 7002679)
Oh my, at first I thought it was the bird what fell into the court and was thinking how cruel you were laughing instead of caring about the poor bird! Shouldn't read so fast :oops:

In our case there was a clear rustling among the leaves, but I can imagine it to be unclear other times. Also in badminton we sometimes wondered if the shuttle touched the ceiling just very slightly or not...

Lol, the bird was I imagine startled, but otherwise uninjured.

In your case, the rustling of leaves might be due to wind rather than ball, no? (I mean in general, perhaps not in the specific situation you were thinking of.)

sureshs 11-08-2012 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seseli (Post 7002679)
In our case there was a clear rustling among the leaves,

There is a bear who sits on the tree branches and watches you playing

seseli 11-09-2012 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7003154)
There is a bear who sits on the tree branches and watches you playing

Next time I am taking a jar of honey with me to appease the bear and stop him from eating our balls if we play some more lobs.


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