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-   -   What is the players' share? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445210)

PeteD 11-08-2012 11:36 AM

What is the players' share?
 
Roger Federer, President of the ATP Player Council, continues to be involved in negotiations to get players more money. (Nadal and Djokovic were on the Council but they have left.) I know there was a thread on this a ways back (and some threads on WTA money), but my question relates to what portion actually goes to the players. An article in the New York Times last month said player prizes were "believed" to be 20-30% of revenues of "ATP events" but the article also estimated players get 17% of the AO revenues, and at the US Open, 11%.

Are these percentages accurate? Let's look at the O2 right now. Average cost of a seat maybe at least $ 200 (about 125 pounds). I know there are some cheaper seats but as the week draws on, there are no cheap seats and you can pay thousands of pounds for the best seats.

The tourney fills 18,000 seats, twice a day. 8-day tourney. That is 288,000 tickets at $200 = over $56 million. Sponsors pay ?? Say they pay equal to ticket receipts. Plus the tourney gets money for TV rights and from concessions. My estimates and/or math could be off but I think the tourney could be grossing $200 million or more.

The player participation fees and prizes are posted. Total prizes for singles are about $7.5 million, assuming they pay out a $1 million bonus for undefeated champion. Doubles prizes are about one-third as much as singles. So we are at $10 million for the players, from $200 million for the tourney.

That would be 5% of revenues to the players. Just a first stab guess. Anybody know more or care to comment?

Prisoner of Birth 11-08-2012 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteD (Post 7002913)
Roger Federer, President of the ATP Player Council, continues to be involved in negotiations to get players more money. (Nadal and Djokovic were on the Council but they have left.) I know there was a thread on this a ways back (and some threads on WTA money), but my question relates to what portion actually goes to the players. An article in the New York Times last month said player prizes were "believed" to be 20-30% of revenues of "ATP events" but the article also estimated players get 17% of the AO revenues, and at the US Open, 11%.

Are these percentages accurate? Let's look at the O2 right now. Average cost of a seat maybe at least $ 200 (about 125 pounds). I know there are some cheaper seats but as the week draws on, there are no cheap seats and you can pay thousands of pounds for the best seats.

The tourney fills 18,000 seats, twice a day. 8-day tourney. That is 288,000 tickets at $200 = over $56 million. Sponsors pay ?? Say they pay equal to ticket receipts. Plus the tourney gets money for TV rights and from concessions. My estimates and/or math could be off but I think the tourney could be grossing $200 million or more.

The player participation fees and prizes are posted. Total prizes for singles are about $7.5 million, assuming they pay out a $1 million bonus for undefeated champion. Doubles prizes are about one-third as much as singles. So we are at $10 million for the players, from $200 million for the tourney.

That would be 5% of revenues to the players. Just a first stab guess. Anybody know more or care to comment?

I know nothing but I really wish the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders were paid way more than they are right now. It would be the best thing for Tennis.

PeteD 11-08-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prisoner of Birth (Post 7002965)
I know nothing but I really wish the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders were paid way more than they are right now. It would be the best thing for Tennis.

I agree with that, and more for qualifiers too

Crisstti 11-08-2012 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteD (Post 7002913)
Roger Federer, President of the ATP Player Council, continues to be involved in negotiations to get players more money. (Nadal and Djokovic were on the Council but they have left.) I know there was a thread on this a ways back (and some threads on WTA money), but my question relates to what portion actually goes to the players. An article in the New York Times last month said player prizes were "believed" to be 20-30% of revenues of "ATP events" but the article also estimated players get 17% of the AO revenues, and at the US Open, 11%.

Are these percentages accurate? Let's look at the O2 right now. Average cost of a seat maybe at least $ 200 (about 125 pounds). I know there are some cheaper seats but as the week draws on, there are no cheap seats and you can pay thousands of pounds for the best seats.

The tourney fills 18,000 seats, twice a day. 8-day tourney. That is 288,000 tickets at $200 = over $56 million. Sponsors pay ?? Say they pay equal to ticket receipts. Plus the tourney gets money for TV rights and from concessions. My estimates and/or math could be off but I think the tourney could be grossing $200 million or more.

The player participation fees and prizes are posted. Total prizes for singles are about $7.5 million, assuming they pay out a $1 million bonus for undefeated champion. Doubles prizes are about one-third as much as singles. So we are at $10 million for the players, from $200 million for the tourney.

That would be 5% of revenues to the players. Just a first stab guess. Anybody know more or care to comment?

That seems actually outrageous :-?

Federerkblade 11-08-2012 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crisstti (Post 7003203)
That seems actually outrageous :-?


Ha but true

gavna 11-10-2012 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteD (Post 7002913)
Roger Federer, President of the ATP Player Council, continues to be involved in negotiations to get players more money. (Nadal and Djokovic were on the Council but they have left.) I know there was a thread on this a ways back (and some threads on WTA money), but my question relates to what portion actually goes to the players. An article in the New York Times last month said player prizes were "believed" to be 20-30% of revenues of "ATP events" but the article also estimated players get 17% of the AO revenues, and at the US Open, 11%.

Are these percentages accurate? Let's look at the O2 right now. Average cost of a seat maybe at least $ 200 (about 125 pounds). I know there are some cheaper seats but as the week draws on, there are no cheap seats and you can pay thousands of pounds for the best seats.

The tourney fills 18,000 seats, twice a day. 8-day tourney. That is 288,000 tickets at $200 = over $56 million. Sponsors pay ?? Say they pay equal to ticket receipts. Plus the tourney gets money for TV rights and from concessions. My estimates and/or math could be off but I think the tourney could be grossing $200 million or more.

The player participation fees and prizes are posted. Total prizes for singles are about $7.5 million, assuming they pay out a $1 million bonus for undefeated champion. Doubles prizes are about one-third as much as singles. So we are at $10 million for the players, from $200 million for the tourney.

That would be 5% of revenues to the players. Just a first stab guess. Anybody know more or care to comment?

You are also omitting the taxes that must be paid to the govt and the cost to use the O2 - it should make a strong return but nowhere near the numbers yor assuming.

dominikk1985 11-11-2012 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteD (Post 7002913)
Roger Federer, President of the ATP Player Council, continues to be involved in negotiations to get players more money. (Nadal and Djokovic were on the Council but they have left.) I know there was a thread on this a ways back (and some threads on WTA money), but my question relates to what portion actually goes to the players. An article in the New York Times last month said player prizes were "believed" to be 20-30% of revenues of "ATP events" but the article also estimated players get 17% of the AO revenues, and at the US Open, 11%.

Are these percentages accurate? Let's look at the O2 right now. Average cost of a seat maybe at least $ 200 (about 125 pounds). I know there are some cheaper seats but as the week draws on, there are no cheap seats and you can pay thousands of pounds for the best seats.

The tourney fills 18,000 seats, twice a day. 8-day tourney. That is 288,000 tickets at $200 = over $56 million. Sponsors pay ?? Say they pay equal to ticket receipts. Plus the tourney gets money for TV rights and from concessions. My estimates and/or math could be off but I think the tourney could be grossing $200 million or more.

The player participation fees and prizes are posted. Total prizes for singles are about $7.5 million, assuming they pay out a $1 million bonus for undefeated champion. Doubles prizes are about one-third as much as singles. So we are at $10 million for the players, from $200 million for the tourney.

That would be 5% of revenues to the players. Just a first stab guess. Anybody know more or care to comment?

well you also have to consider costs. the Arena has to be paid, personell, umpires, organisation comittee, other facilities and so an also. probably the ATP gets something too and then there are taxes.

you have to subtract all costs first before you can calculate the players share. still they should probably get more but you shouldn't underestimate the costs of such a tournament.

Tshooter 11-11-2012 02:34 AM

I think the issue is a bit more involved then a simple look at the gross tournament revenue verse the players cut, however, for USO it's approximately 14% of tournament revenue based on 2010 numbers.

About 177 million in tournament revenue and 25 million in prize money. It's public information.

Bobby Jr 11-11-2012 02:58 AM

Yeah, as dominikk1985 says above, you have to include the costs of the event.

- Hiring the dome for 2 weeks (they have to set up the court etc) would cost in the millions.
- Lighting - hundreds of thousands for an event like that
- Getting the tennis courts installed (including the practice court), wouldn't be surprised if costs crept up near a million.
- signage, posters, media placement - millions of dollars
- design work - tens of thousands or more per year
- staff - in the millions of dollar once you consider all the staff needed for an event like this (a GM, doctors, security, chefs, hosts, selectors/trainers for the ballkids)
- tv gear - specialist sport coverage also including the tech for all the commentator's booths to be hooked up/wired in.
- Hawkeye hiring
- Media centre space
- Accounting/legal consultancy
etc...

Costs for events like these are plenty and add up very quickly. I doubt we'll see the operating budget for it anytime soon.

FWIW, the revenue calculations in the original post seem high also.

PeteD 11-14-2012 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tshooter (Post 7007197)
I think the issue is a bit more involved then a simple look at the gross tournament revenue verse the players cut, however, for USO it's approximately 14% of tournament revenue based on 2010 numbers.

About 177 million in tournament revenue and 25 million in prize money. It's public information.

There are public claims for revenues but are they accurate? Not sure where you get $177 million. Wall St. Journal claimed it was $215 million in 2011:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...252687100.html
World Tennis magazine claimed the USO 2012 took in $218 million and players' take was 8.6%.
http://www.worldtennismagazine.com/archives/8128

I have a feeling the ATP executives don't reveal costs, which would include salaries that are rumored to be rather high for their skill level. I'd wager pro tennis has a lot of good ol' boy stuff going on and the players are getting shafted.

sundaypunch 11-14-2012 05:39 PM

That's what happens when you have an unorganized group of players that have no real negotiating leverage.

tistrapukcipeht 11-14-2012 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7007132)
well you also have to consider costs. the Arena has to be paid, personell, umpires, organisation comittee, other facilities and so an also. probably the ATP gets something too and then there are taxes.

you have to subtract all costs first before you can calculate the players share. still they should probably get more but you shouldn't underestimate the costs of such a tournament.

Only Umpires are paid, the people that work are volunteers , have you ever seen or heard a champions speech?

Goosehead 11-14-2012 06:05 PM

if you look on tennis.com under players and rankings sub-banner along the top there is a prizemoney list...

only the world top 22 rank earned over $1 million..for the whole year..whats that ? about 800'000 ??..its about 4 weeks pay for wayne rooney..

ok the top 10 are getting plenty but itsmeant to be a global sport but alot of players get provincial pay..all the top 150-200 players should be getting way more..in england/britain we often hear of men / women giving up tennis because they can have a stable salary, and/or earn more as an ex-pro tennis coach somewhere.

PeteD 11-14-2012 07:22 PM

It's an interesting list, top 100 by earnings, I guess it's year to date. Pre-expense, pre-tax. I wonder what typical pro player expenses are.

1 Novak Djokovic Serbia $9,953,737
2 Roger Federer Switzerland $7,424,842
3 Andy Murray Scotland $5,124,230
4 Rafael Nadal Spain $4,997,448
5 David Ferrer Spain $4,041,340
6 Juan Martin del Potro Argentina $2,775,003
7 Tomas Berdych Czech Republic $2,593,967
8 Jo-Wilfried Tsonga France $2,168,640
9 Janko Tipsarevic Serbia $1,833,737
10 Richard Gasquet France $1,357,677
11 Radek Stepanek Czech Republic $1,345,031
12 Nicolas Almagro Spain $1,334,555
13 John Isner United States $1,334,332
14 Juan Monaco Argentina $1,242,704
15 Milos Raonic Canada $1,191,394
16 Marin Cilic Croatia $1,186,306
17 Alexandr Dolgopolov Ukraine $1,171,600
18 Gilles Simon France $1,105,586
19 Marcel Granollers Spain $1,093,338
20 Philipp Kohlschreiber Germany $1,063,408
21 Kei Nishikori Japan $1,044,847
22 Fernando Verdasco Spain $1,005,846
23 Andreas Seppi Italy $947,316
24 Sam Querrey United States $923,211
25 Jurgen Melzer Austria $917,106
26 Bob Bryan United States $916,603
27 Mike Bryan United States $916,603
28 Stanislas Wawrinka Switzerland $902,450
29 Mikhail Youzhny Russia $879,840
30 Florian Mayer Germany $821,877
31 Tommy Haas Germany $818,595
32 Viktor Troicki Serbia $763,366
33 Leander Paes India $762,495
34 Feliciano Lopez Spain $723,420
35 Kevin Anderson South Africa $711,108
36 Daniel Nestor Canada $696,713
37 Julien Benneteau France $663,888
38 Denis Istomin Uzbekistan $660,205
39 Pablo Andujar Spain $658,528
40 Michael Llodra France $644,605
41 Max Mirnyi Belarus $631,720
42 Mardy Fish United States $622,850
43 Marc Lopez Spain $618,260
44 Carlos Berlocq Argentina $593,827
45 Marcos Baghdatis Cyprus $582,812
46 Albert Ramos Spain $578,848
47 Thomaz Bellucci Brazil $568,569
48 Lukasz Kubot Poland $560,367
49 Jarkko Nieminen Finland $555,650
50 Andy Roddick United States $549,286
51 Jeremy Chardy France $544,400
52 Robert Lindstedt Sweden $535,235
53 Fabio Fognini Italy $533,149
54 Xavier Malisse Belgium $527,763
55 Bernard Tomic Australia $527,353
56 Ivan Dodig Croatia $524,730
57 Nikolay Davydenko Russia $506,247
58 Benoit Paire France $502,783
59 Robin Haase Netherlands $499,471
60 Mahesh Bhupathi India $499,173
61 Horia Tecau Romania $497,956
62 Rohan Bopanna India $495,231
63 Ryan Harrison United States $480,018
64 Jerzy Janowicz Poland $477,833
65 Martin Klizan Slovakia $462,599
66 Philipp Petzschner Germany $441,549
67 Nicolas Mahut France $436,167
68 Guillermo Garcia-Lopez Spain $433,242
69 Alex Bogomolov Jr. Russia $430,710
70 Matthew Ebden Australia $429,771
71 Alejandro Falla Colombia $427,051
72 Grigor Dimitrov Bulgaria $413,047
73 Edouard Roger-Vasselin France $410,585
74 Nenad Zimonjic Serbia $409,497
75 Lukas Rosol Czech Republic $402,106
76 Flavio Cipolla Italy $399,726
77 Santiago Giraldo Colombia $395,445
78 Mariusz Fyrstenberg Poland $390,146
79 Lukas Lacko Slovakia $386,716
80 Marinko Matosevic Australia $382,103
81 Marcin Matkowski Poland $380,750
82 Paul-Henri Mathieu France $378,879
83 Sergiy Stakhovsky Ukraine $378,835
84 Brian Baker United States $376,262
85 Gael Monfils France $367,722
86 David Goffin Belgium $367,523
87 Lleyton Hewitt Australia $365,620
88 Jean-Julien Rojer Netherlands $362,923
89 Gilles Muller Luxembourg $360,715
90 Aisam-Ul-Haq Qureshi Pakistan $358,384
91 Olivier Rochus Belgium $355,911
92 Yen-Hsun Lu Chinese Taipei $354,504
93 Leonardo Mayer Argentina $353,633
94 Jonathan Marray England $347,492
95 Ivo Karlovic Croatia $345,527
96 Filippo Volandri Italy $338,306
97 Benjamin Becker Germany $338,127
98 Frederik Nielsen Denmark $334,901
99 Mikhail Kukushkin Kazakhstan $333,009
100 David Nalbandian Argentina $325,263

Tshooter 11-15-2012 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteD (Post 7016931)
There are public claims for revenues but are they accurate? Not sure where you get $177 million. Wall St. Journal claimed it was $215 million in 2011:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...252687100.html
World Tennis magazine claimed the USO 2012 took in $218 million and players' take was 8.6%.
http://www.worldtennismagazine.com/archives/8128

I have a feeling the ATP executives don't reveal costs, which would include salaries that are rumored to be rather high for their skill level. I'd wager pro tennis has a lot of good ol' boy stuff going on and the players are getting shafted.

I got it from the horses mouth.

A requirement of the USTA's tax-exempt status is to make public disclosure of its financials using IRS Form 990.

I got $177 million (rounded down) from line item "tournament related" in Part VIII "statement of revenue." I ignored $1.3 million of "tennis program fees" because I don't know what it means and not sure it is USO related and I ignored "ball tests fees" as immaterial. Call it 178 if you prefer -- it doesn't effect the players percent much.

I got $25 million (rounded down) in prize money from the line item "event prize money/other" in Part IX "statement of functional expenses."

Those two numbers were the components of the 14% figure representing the players share of the tournament revenue.

There is about $47 million of "tennis tournament" revenue that shows up on the National Tennis Center (an affiliated entity of the USTA) Form 990 that would get you to $224 but I assume (but do not know for sure at first glance) if I slogged through the rules that the $47 is included on the USTA form in the $178. (The $47 million appears to represent admissions and merchandise only.)

On your other point, the USTA is not "atp executives." The USTA, again related to its tax exempt status, must disclose compensation for officers, directors, key employees and highest compensated employees as well as independent contractors.

It must also disclose its expenses.

PeteD 11-15-2012 06:48 AM

Fascinating and helpful information! It is amazing what you can get online these days, and of course from knowledgeable people.
Question remains, though, are the players getting shafted?
Figures are murky. USTA reported in 2011 Total Revenue of $205M. I really doubt NTC revenue is in there -- why would they report it twice? NTC revenue should be added (as is prize money), giving revenues more like $230 milion, closer to what Wall St. Journal reported in their article. USTA financial statement for 2008-9 is online at:
http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/U...IGNED_COPY.pdf
It lists US Open alone as generating over $200 M. The same statement says USTA owns most of Cincinnatti and some of Indian Wells, which may also be separately reported. So without more information, I don't see that we have a fair idea of USTA revenues.
On the player payout side, USTA reports "event prize money/other." I would take the published prizes list, as the articles originally cited did ($7.5 M), rather than USTA's unclear "prizes/other" figure, which is (surprise!?) much higher.
Maybe I am favoring the players, as clear underdogs in any contest against the owners, but so far my best guess is, player take = about 5%, or even lower.

citybert 11-15-2012 07:09 AM

I believe the revenue share is confidential information but I've heard 30/70, whereas most other sports(in the US) are much closer to 50/50.

Plus there are post retirement benefits, I think there is none or very little for ATP/WTA.

Also don't forget players have costs too, coaches, travel/lodging, Physios(for the top 10) maybe. otherwise they use the tournament ones.

ollinger 11-15-2012 08:07 AM

^^ Comparisons with other sports are a little meaningless as many tennis (and golf) tournaments are run to benefit local charities or non-profit (by legal definition) national tennis organizations. Major sports leagues only divide revenue between players, owners, and expenses.

citybert 11-15-2012 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ollinger (Post 7017828)
^^ Comparisons with other sports are a little meaningless as many tennis (and golf) tournaments are run to benefit local charities or non-profit (by legal definition) national tennis organizations. Major sports leagues only divide revenue between players, owners, and expenses.

Oh yes, I def agree. Only comparing b/c it's a sport, there are too many reasons why they can't do that and you mentioned some good ones.

Also a lot of the major sports get a huge bulk of their revenue from TV contracts that are locked up for 5 years plus and are in the billions of dollars. Not sure how the TV contracts work for ATP/WTA, but they are def not as lucrative as those for NBA, NFL, MLB, premiership, etc. In addition many teams also have their own TV networks.

citybert 11-15-2012 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteD (Post 7017126)
It's an interesting list, top 100 by earnings, I guess it's year to date. Pre-expense, pre-tax. I wonder what typical pro player expenses are.

Interesting. Top 10 made over 40% of the top 100. I wonder if there is a list of all their earnings. ie sponsorships/endorsements,appearance fees, shoe contracts etc..

The top 10 would probably make 60% of the top 100 in that list


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