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-   -   Marc Lopez and Gronollier--doubles, Can Amateurs Learn from them? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=445584)

Nostradamus 11-12-2012 04:23 PM

Marc Lopez and Gronollier--doubles, Can Amateurs Learn from them?
 
Lopez, little guy with weak serve, Gronollier--not exactly your most talented player on tour. and yet these guy beat the best in the world in doubles and proved, you don't need 130mph serves and 90 mph passing shots and returns to win at the highest level.

To all the experts like Fuzzy yellow ball and Jeff Salzenstein, What can we learn from these guys ? that can translate into USTA 4.5 or even 4.0 level doubles tennis ?

86golf 11-12-2012 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nostradamus (Post 7012929)
Lopez, little guy with weak serve, Gronollier--not exactly your most talented player on tour. and yet these guy beat the best in the world in doubles and proved, you don't need 130mph serves and 90 mph passing shots and returns to win at the highest level.

To all the experts like Fuzzy yellow ball and Jeff Salzenstein, What can we learn from these guys ? that can translate into USTA 4.5 or even 4.0 level doubles tennis ?

Emphasizes the importance of service returns and spinny dipping ground strokes. I think we knew this, it's just a matter of delivering it when it counts. Having the confidence to up your racquet head speed while aiming with margin. The reality is a hard flat ground stroke is the easiest shot to volley.

sundaypunch 11-12-2012 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86golf (Post 7013123)
Emphasizes the importance of service returns and spinny dipping ground strokes. I think we knew this, it's just a matter of delivering it when it counts. Having the confidence to up your racquet head speed while aiming with margin. The reality is a hard flat ground stroke is the easiest shot to volley.

Good point...

5263 11-13-2012 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86golf (Post 7013123)
Emphasizes the importance of service returns and spinny dipping ground strokes. I think we knew this, it's just a matter of delivering it when it counts. Having the confidence to up your racquet head speed while aiming with margin. The reality is a hard flat ground stroke is the easiest shot to volley.

Good points above and I'd add the importance of a coordinated effort for good
positioning. Good position does more than just cover the court; It also strongly
affects the decisions of the opponents and where they can and will hit!

maleyoyo 11-13-2012 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86golf (Post 7013123)
Emphasizes the importance of service returns and spinny dipping ground strokes. I think we knew this, it's just a matter of delivering it when it counts. Having the confidence to up your racquet head speed while aiming with margin. The reality is a hard flat ground stroke is the easiest shot to volley.

Excellent post.
I would also add side spin and aim for the service line. If you hit cross court with side spin and the ball is dipping, you’d force the approaching opponent to bend down and volley up cross court to counter your spin. Any slight mishit the ball will pop up making it an easy put away for your net man.
Your shots are much tougher to be poached by the net man since they are moving and spinning away from him.

boramiNYC 11-13-2012 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86golf (Post 7013123)
Emphasizes the importance of service returns and spinny dipping ground strokes. I think we knew this, it's just a matter of delivering it when it counts. Having the confidence to up your racquet head speed while aiming with margin. The reality is a hard flat ground stroke is the easiest shot to volley.

at pro level reality is most hard flat gs are not hit right to your volley sweetspot. most often they are away from you and barely grazing the net. try volleying that.

Ok, the topic is for amateurs. Still, spinny loopy strokes tend to travel slower in the air and usually has much more net clearance. So, if the volleyer is skilled he can close the net one step quicker and meet the ball pretty high up. If the spinny stroke is grazing the net, that's another story.

sureshs 11-13-2012 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nostradamus (Post 7012929)
Lopez, little guy with weak serve, Gronollier--not exactly your most talented player on tour. and yet these guy beat the best in the world in doubles and proved, you don't need 130mph serves and 90 mph passing shots and returns to win at the highest level.

First, this is doubles, a sport which tournament directors reluctantly subsidize with singles money. Second, if they beat the best in the world, they are talented.

LuckyR 11-15-2012 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7014134)
First, this is doubles, a sport which tournament directors reluctantly subsidize with singles money. Second, if they beat the best in the world, they are talented.

First, this was the WTF, and the stands were packed for every single match, singles or doubles. Second, no "ifs", they did beat the best in the world and you are correct they are talented, but then again, you already knew that.

To the OP's point, Marc and Marcel illustrate a comon doubles team in that there is a setter and spiker and each can play both roles. When Marc is at the baseline, you know he is going to go crazy CC where poaches will be uncommon and the return has a chance of being weak, also approaches will be coughed up from shoetops, so Marcel can spike an easy volley. When Marcel is at the baseline, he is a threat to go into the netman's alley, so poaches also will be less common than average, Marc, of course is an excellent poacher with great reflexes and hands at the net.

Marcel, even though not a natural volleyer must be intimidating at the net (since her practically stands on top of it), since Marc's very low pace serve often results in service winners, which I would not have predicted.

dominikk1985 11-15-2012 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nostradamus (Post 7012929)
Lopez, little guy with weak serve, Gronollier--not exactly your most talented player on tour. and yet these guy beat the best in the world in doubles and proved, you don't need 130mph serves and 90 mph passing shots and returns to win at the highest level.

To all the experts like Fuzzy yellow ball and Jeff Salzenstein, What can we learn from these guys ? that can translate into USTA 4.5 or even 4.0 level doubles tennis ?

granollers is ranked 33 in singles (highest was 19). not exactly a top player but a lot higher ranked than most other dubs players who are usually between 100 and 200 in singles.

rainingaces 11-15-2012 11:03 AM

WTF doubles is a toss up literally anyone could have won. Marray/Nielsen won more points against the spanish pair and lost, lost count of the tie breakers where both teams had mps. I dont think they are one of the best teams, we will see for sure next year.

sureshs 11-15-2012 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuckyR (Post 7017767)
First, this was the WTF, and the stands were packed for every single match, singles or doubles. Second, no "ifs", they did beat the best in the world and you are correct they are talented, but then again, you already knew that.

To the OP's point, Marc and Marcel illustrate a comon doubles team in that there is a setter and spiker and each can play both roles. When Marc is at the baseline, you know he is going to go crazy CC where poaches will be uncommon and the return has a chance of being weak, also approaches will be coughed up from shoetops, so Marcel can spike an easy volley. When Marcel is at the baseline, he is a threat to go into the netman's alley, so poaches also will be less common than average, Marc, of course is an excellent poacher with great reflexes and hands at the net.

Marcel, even though not a natural volleyer must be intimidating at the net (since her practically stands on top of it), since Marc's very low pace serve often results in service winners, which I would not have predicted.

So they are very good at doubles, with great reflexes, volleys, poaching etc. I am still not sure what the OP's question was. Somehow it seemed to involve NOT having great serves and groundies and what club players can learn from them. If the answer is that club players can learn great doubles skills from them, then that is obvious. If the answer is that they need NOT develop great serves and groundies because they can win doubles without it, then that is not satisfactory. In other words, not having a great serve does not seem to be something to aspire for.

LuckyR 11-15-2012 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7018398)
So they are very good at doubles, with great reflexes, volleys, poaching etc. I am still not sure what the OP's question was. Somehow it seemed to involve NOT having great serves and groundies and what club players can learn from them. If the answer is that club players can learn great doubles skills from them, then that is obvious. If the answer is that they need NOT develop great serves and groundies because they can win doubles without it, then that is not satisfactory. In other words, not having a great serve does not seem to be something to aspire for.

I agree with your wording, but I think it is more about taking the game you have, say, a serve without overpowering pace, and learning to win doubles with it, rather than making the declaration that you shouldn't, or don't have to have a serve with pace.

In other words there isn't a single shot, part of fitness/training or tactics/strategy, that improving it wouldn't be a desirable thing, but the reality is that some of us have maximized what we will ever do with a stroke, say a serve speed of 85 mph. But by adding to that "liability" with other assets, you can make a winning game.

LuckyR 11-15-2012 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7018144)
granollers is ranked 33 in singles (highest was 19). not exactly a top player but a lot higher ranked than most other dubs players who are usually between 100 and 200 in singles.

Good point, he is the highest ranked singles player at the WTF doubles...

5263 11-15-2012 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sureshs (Post 7018398)
If the answer is that club players can learn great doubles skills from them, then that is obvious.

I expect the question was more about which of those doubles skills they exhibit
could be most helpful for club players to learn from them.

sureshs 11-15-2012 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5263 (Post 7018731)
I expect the question was more about which of those doubles skills they exhibit
could be most helpful for club players to learn from them.

I know. There are some deep undercurrents which are well known in other parts of the forum which trigger some reactions. It is complicated. Never mind.

Nostradamus 11-15-2012 05:00 PM

To me, it just tells us that in doubles, even at the highest level of ATP, you don't need a huge serve and insanely good volleys to be top 5 player.

Doubles 11-15-2012 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nostradamus (Post 7018763)
To me, it just tells us that in doubles, even at the highest level of ATP, you don't need a huge serve and insanely good volleys to be top 5 player.

I would say they volleyed pretty well if they won the WTF. They might not be a net oriented team the same way the Bryan Bros are, but they hit clutch volleys when they needed to.

tennis_ocd 11-16-2012 05:00 AM

Things that jumped out or confirmed to me:
- Solid, high percentage/location first serve is key. Many think they need the big 130 mph single serve but it's counter productive.
- Other successful ways to play than the traditional two up, serve and volley; even at this level.
- Teamwork. Obvious but Lopez and Gronollier really mix it up.
- Pay attention to opponents; recognize and go after guy tightening up. (Stepanek crumbled in quarters tie-break.)

dominikk1985 11-16-2012 08:57 AM

there are a lot of ways to play doubles.

Massu and gonzalez won the olympic games ripping 100 mph FHs without a lot of net game.

Nostradamus 11-17-2012 04:48 AM

As I am watching the davis cup. How does 5'9" Lopez hold serve so consistently with 100 mph or 90 mph 1st serve ? this is at the very highest level of ATP, we are talking about now.


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