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-   -   Gut/Syn cross for T.E. (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=446043)

wmilas 11-18-2012 06:43 AM

Gut/Syn cross for T.E.
 
So. I've been hitting with Gut (Pacific Nat 17)/MSV CoFocus (18) for the last two years. I love it. I'm a heavy ball baseline player. Unfortunately I also turn 40 this year. As I've started playing more hours per week I've had a bout of T.E. Never head it before and let me tell you, it sucks.

I'm on the whole recovery routine. Ice, twisty exercise, meds, ect. Its to the point where its barely noticeable. Unfortunately I had to switch out of my Gut/Co to Gut/Biphase 18. My wife uses Biphase and I have a ton of it around. I keep a third stick strung With Biphase/OGSM for wet weather. I notice that my TE elbow was not as bad using the wet weather setup, so I strung a stick with gut/Biphase. Its allowed my TE to heal.

Here is the problem though. The spin is not the same as Gut/Co. I'd like to figure out which synthetic cross has the most spin. I'm guessing I'm looking for a smooth surface maybe mono filament, possible flat. Obviously it has to be soft. I break the gut in 8-12 hours so It doesn't have to last forever.

The Ashaway zx monogut looks interesting, along with the Gosen Powermaster I & II. Ashaway is monofiliment (and soft!) and the gosen is flat.

Anyone have any experience? I hope to one day get back to the poly cross but for now, I'd like to get the best that I can handle.

Oh btw, I like the the Gut/Biphase better than full gut. Full gut doesn't snap back for me at all.

danotje 11-18-2012 07:39 AM

I don't have any string advice, but I do have two things that helped me a lot. You said twisty exercises, so I'm going to assume you mean the Flexbar. That helped immediately. I also switched to a PK Kinetic frame (7G specifically), and that not only helped heal it, but seems to be keeping it away, and I have both a full bed and hybrid of poly. My other recommendation is actually easy and free--loosen your grip on ground strokes. You really have to concentrate to do it, but once you get the hang of it, not only does your arm feel better, but your strokes become more consistent and solid. Those two things plus the Flexbar has kept me pain free. I don't even use the bar any more. Highly recommend analyzing your grip. It is free to do and makes a big difference.

wmilas 11-18-2012 09:52 AM

Yes I'm using the flexbar. That and ice right after a match helps the most. I've tried the PK 7G and I did not like it at all. Granted I demoed it with some crappy syn gut in it, but it felt dead. Like swinging a padded hammer. Easy on the arm but the feedback was poor for me. I did not like it. If I'm forced to I'd switch to it, but its a last ditch effort.

I currently prefer the Yonex RDiS 100 98 inch frame. I demoed like 30+ sticks 4 years ago and that's the one that felt the best to me all around.

I'm a one handed backhand, both sides western. You are right about the grip. The issue I have is a perspire heavily. The grip twists when it gets wet if I get too lose. Its the backhand side really where the injury is occurring. I can feel it if I hang on too tight and frame a ball on the backhand side. Ive tried all the popular grips and the Bab Pro Tour seems to work the best for me. I've heard that a plain old leather grip can work too, although I have not tried that.

tvizz 11-18-2012 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmilas (Post 7022727)
So. I've been hitting with Gut (Pacific Nat 17)/MSV CoFocus (18) for the last two years. I love it. I'm a heavy ball baseline player. Unfortunately I also turn 40 this year. As I've started playing more hours per week I've had a bout of T.E. Never head it before and let me tell you, it sucks.

I'm on the whole recovery routine. Ice, twisty exercise, meds, ect. Its to the point where its barely noticeable. Unfortunately I had to switch out of my Gut/Co to Gut/Biphase 18. My wife uses Biphase and I have a ton of it around. I keep a third stick strung With Biphase/OGSM for wet weather. I notice that my TE elbow was not as bad using the wet weather setup, so I strung a stick with gut/Biphase. Its allowed my TE to heal.

Here is the problem though. The spin is not the same as Gut/Co. I'd like to figure out which synthetic cross has the most spin. I'm guessing I'm looking for a smooth surface maybe mono filament, possible flat. Obviously it has to be soft. I break the gut in 8-12 hours so It doesn't have to last forever.

The Ashaway zx monogut looks interesting, along with the Gosen Powermaster I & II. Ashaway is monofiliment (and soft!) and the gosen is flat.

Anyone have any experience? I hope to one day get back to the poly cross but for now, I'd like to get the best that I can handle.

Oh btw, I like the the Gut/Biphase better than full gut. Full gut doesn't snap back for me at all.

For some reason I can only post using the quote button.... Anyhow....

Why not try a full bed of gut? I found gut gives better spin and durability than expected. Also you could try a soft co such as black widow, do so carefully though. In addition you could try a more arm friendly racquet and try a softer co also.

wmilas 11-18-2012 03:34 PM

I've tried full gut. I get more spin with the gut/Biphase for some reason. I did buy a bunch of soft Co's (Sidewinder, Black widow, and a few others) but honestly, I'm afraid to try em :)

As far as the racquet, I know that the yonex + the gut/biphase is working. I just hit with a pro for 90 minutes w/ solid baseline rallies the whole time. Arm feels good.. in fact it feels better than my shoulder. I'm just searching to see if there is something better :)

kopfan 11-18-2012 04:15 PM

I have no recommendation on syn gut since you are using ogsm. If you want to soften the bed more.. hybrid with tourna quasi is very good for TE and frozen shoulder. Give power in your shot as well...

fortun8son 11-18-2012 09:25 PM

There are some synguts and multis with slick surfaces.
LightningXX and PPA come to mind.
The only flat nylon that I know of is Gosen Polymaster.
RIP Control 17 may also be worth a shot.
It has good spin and durability for a multi and is also quite comfy and low powered.

kazamzaa 11-19-2012 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmilas (Post 7022983)

I currently prefer the Yonex RDiS 100 98 inch frame. I demoed like 30+ sticks 4 years ago and that's the one that felt the best to me all around.

The rdis100mp is a very nice racquet to play with. Unfortunately it is also very stiff. Some say it is stiffer than the specs given. I bought the rdis200mp, since it has the same specs except the stiffness (I had similar problems to yours). For some reason the weight distribution, and more importantly the power level felt different. If you are interested in trying the "softer version" of your current racquet, be sure to string it a couple of pounds tighter.

You should also try altering cold and warm water in 15 second intervals to improve elbows blood supply.

good luck!

tennis_nut 11-19-2012 12:49 PM

Head RIP Feel (white) is what you're looking for. Unfortunately, it is only sold in the Intellistring hybrid set. It's pretty soft and has a very slick outer coating. I used this as a cross with gut mains when I was getting over my elbow pain.

wmilas 11-19-2012 04:16 PM

It most definitely plays stiffer than the specs. I think its because its very head light coupled with its massive swingspeed. I can get that head moving faster than any other 98 incher. I think its the light head with the fast speed that is whats doing it.

I played all out Yesterday for 90 minutes and I feel great today. Muscle soreness but no tendon over the norm. I think I'm good, just have to lay off the poly.

As far as the cold/hot I thought that was just for sprains? I do that when ever I blow an ankle out. I thought tendons were only cold?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazamzaa (Post 7024864)
The rdis100mp is a very nice racquet to play with. Unfortunately it is also very stiff. Some say it is stiffer than the specs given. I bought the rdis200mp, since it has the same specs except the stiffness (I had similar problems to yours). For some reason the weight distribution, and more importantly the power level felt different. If you are interested in trying the "softer version" of your current racquet, be sure to string it a couple of pounds tighter.

You should also try altering cold and warm water in 15 second intervals to improve elbows blood supply.

good luck!


tball 11-19-2012 05:50 PM

I had good luck with Isospeed Professional (both Classic and New one) as crosses. They are slippery, resilient and feel soft and stretchy. Most importantly (for me), they stay slippery for a very long time.

There are plenty other strings that are soft and nice, but they either have a textured surface (ie. not slippery from the get go), or their surface is so thin that it wears out in an hour or so.

I was not impressed with RIP Feel. Sippery-sure, but no resilience or snap-back.

Forgot to mention: for some reason, I also had good luck with Wilson Syn Gut Exteme. This is definitely a hard string. But maybe because it is so hard, it notches very little, and the mains slide on it quite well. Never expected it behave so well, as it is hard and cheap, but it works very well as a cross.

kazamzaa 11-20-2012 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmilas (Post 7025237)

I played all out Yesterday for 90 minutes and I feel great today. Muscle soreness but no tendon over the norm. I think I'm good, just have to lay off the poly.

As far as the cold/hot I thought that was just for sprains? I do that when ever I blow an ankle out. I thought tendons were only cold?

Not cold/hot but cold/warm. Always starting and ending with cold.
IF you only do cold your blood supply suffers. And that slows the healing. Of course there is no blood supply on the tendon itself. Good circulation is the key. So keep it warm. Do flexbar twists 3x15 times two or three times daily. And do 10 times 15sec cold 15sec warm daily.
I actually ditched the polys for a while. Now now I'm able to use them as a cross string with no problems

The Big Kahuna 11-20-2012 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmilas (Post 7022727)
So. I've been hitting with Gut (Pacific Nat 17)/MSV CoFocus (18) for the last two years. I love it. I'm a heavy ball baseline player. Unfortunately I also turn 40 this year. As I've started playing more hours per week I've had a bout of T.E. Never head it before and let me tell you, it sucks.

I'm on the whole recovery routine. Ice, twisty exercise, meds, ect. Its to the point where its barely noticeable. Unfortunately I had to switch out of my Gut/Co to Gut/Biphase 18. My wife uses Biphase and I have a ton of it around. I keep a third stick strung With Biphase/OGSM for wet weather. I notice that my TE elbow was not as bad using the wet weather setup, so I strung a stick with gut/Biphase. Its allowed my TE to heal.

Here is the problem though. The spin is not the same as Gut/Co. I'd like to figure out which synthetic cross has the most spin. I'm guessing I'm looking for a smooth surface maybe mono filament, possible flat. Obviously it has to be soft. I break the gut in 8-12 hours so It doesn't have to last forever.

I had the same issues. I arrived at the same conclusion and - to cure my TE - went to the same set-up you have. Lots of people with TE find that this combo is the best performance to comfort ratio around.

To your question on multis: I spent nearly 6 months (and over $800.) play testing polys, multis, and gut hybrid combinations - I tried just about everything and I researched everything I could find on the subject. I settled on a NATURAL GUT and POLY hybrid in the end - you just cannot beat the performance, comfort, feel, spin, and control you achieve for the money (honestly, you do spend more, but the difference is significant). That said, there are many multis that when combined to polys can perform well if you are on a very limited budget. Here were my findings:

MULTIS to Test:

√ Yonex Tour Super 850 Pro 16 String 8.95 / no reels available
An innovative structure of high elastic multifilament and our exclusive "Power-Spin Coating" that will generate superior spin while maintaining the response and feel of natural gut. A distinctive "Pre-Stretch" method combined with double winding nylon wraps helps maintain string tension and optimizes playability. Noted: Stringforum reports that string plays well at lower tensions (51#). Pro version stiffer with more control.

√ Mantis Comfort Synthetic 16 String 9.00 / 99.00 reel
MANTIS Comfort Synthetic has been specifically developed to provide a soft string with gut like feel and playability whilst the special double coating enhances durability. Thousands of micro fibres are compressed and then nano coated to provide a core with superb feel. This is covered with highly durable monofilaments before the string is coated by a special elastic resin bonding process.

√ Tourna Quasi Gut String 17 8.06 / 99.00 reel
RSI reviewed: Our playtest team found Tourna Quasi-Gut 16 impressive even for a soft nylon, giving it ratings in the top 20 in four separate categories: 5th overall for Touch/Feel, 6th overall (tie) for Playability, 7th overall (tie) for Comfort, and 11th overall (tie) for Power. Bolstering these results are the teams’ well-above-average ratings for Tourna Quasi-Gut for Control, Spin Potential, and Tension Retention. As a result, Unique Tourna Quasi-Gut 16 is tied for 16th overall out of the 140 strings we’ve playtested to date for publication. Additionally, our playtest team told us that Tourna Quasi-Gut 16 doesn’t sacrifice playability for durability or vice versa.

Other strings to consider or play test:

Ashaway Dynamite 17 Soft String Optic Green 11.50
Ashaway Dynamite 18 Soft Blue String 11.50
Gamma Revelation 17 String 7.25
Wilson Sensation 17 String 7.95
ISOSPEED Professional Classic 17 String 9.99
Head FXP Power 17 String 8.95
Prince Recoil 16 String 18.00

Chris Edwards from TW told me when reviewing these various multis: "In order of my preferred cross strings from your list: Yonex 850; Mantis Comfort; Tourna Quasi Gut; and Prince Recoil (for more spin)."

√ - best value

That all said, when I was using my POLY / MULTI hybrid, I had settled on SP TORNADO 17g and Mantis Comfort Synthetic 16 String - which was a great set-up for about $24. for two racquets. This was the best combo I could find at the time in 2010 - until I moved on the the current GUT / POLY hybrid I have now (noted below) which (when you buy the MSV Co-Focus by the reel) comes to $36. for two racquets (a $6. difference per racquet). In the end, I felt I could rationalize that cost when I was having the GUT / POLY hybrid playing well AFTER over 30 hours of play and I was cutting out my POLY / MULTI hybrid after it went dead after 16 hours. In the long run, GUT / POLY plays better and is CHEAPER as it holds the tension and plays LONGER.

Something to consider.

fortun8son 11-20-2012 09:14 PM

I agree that MCS is a good cross if you want to keep the power down, Quasigut has more of a boost.
Of the strings on your list, Dynamite and Isospeed Pro are good choices. The others not so much, The mini reel sale of Sensation is good, I wouldn't buy it at full price.
None of them are great for spin.
Give Head Syngut PPS 18 a try and keep the tension down.
It doesn't last long, but the poly will probably be pretty dead by the time it goes, anyway.
Lightning XX 17 is worth a try, too.
It's pretty slick.

NE1for10is? 04-30-2013 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wmilas (Post 7022727)
I strung a stick with gut/Biphase. Its allowed my TE to heal.

Here is the problem though. The spin is not the same as Gut/Co. I'd like to figure out which synthetic cross has the most spin. I'm guessing I'm looking for a smooth surface maybe mono filament, possible flat. Obviously it has to be soft. I break the gut in 8-12 hours so It doesn't have to last forever.

Oh btw, I like the the Gut/Biphase better than full gut. Full gut doesn't snap back for me at all.

I'm in the same predicament. Did you ever find a combo that you liked that doesn't hurt the arm, but gives more spin? I'm considering the gut/biphase hybrid. Do you still use that?

TimothyO 04-30-2013 07:24 AM

I've tried several Gut/Multi hybrids hoping to find something longer lasting and more comfortable than Gut/Poly.

Nothing I tried compares to Gut/Poly's unique combination of control and spin. Every Gut/Multi I tried provided less control and less "casually accessible" spin potential.

The best result I had was with VS / TNT2 Rx 17 in a ProStaff 95. The mains actually slid pretty well over the multi crosses. The only problem was that it was more pop/power than I'm used to. A higher tension might have worked but that increase friction between mains and crosses. Went back to gut/poly.

Other multi crosses that I tried failed to provide a low friction hybrid. In most cases the string bed got "stuck" out of position just like full-multi and full-gut.

NE1for10is? 04-30-2013 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimothyO (Post 7377912)
I've tried several Gut/Multi hybrids hoping to find something longer lasting and more comfortable than Gut/Poly.

Nothing I tried compares to Gut/Poly's unique combination of control and spin. Every Gut/Multi I tried provided less control and less "casually accessible" spin potential.

The best result I had was with VS / TNT2 Rx 17 in a ProStaff 95. The mains actually slid pretty well over the multi crosses. The only problem was that it was more pop/power than I'm used to. A higher tension might have worked but that increase friction between mains and crosses. Went back to gut/poly.

Other multi crosses that I tried failed to provide a low friction hybrid. In most cases the string bed got "stuck" out of position just like full-multi and full-gut.

So I shouldn't bother with gut/biphase? How's your elbow?

JT_2eighty 04-30-2013 07:50 AM

Good and reliable is Prince Syn Gut Duraflex. Resists notching as well as a syn gut can as the cross. Better spin & longevity than multi crosses, softer feel than poly crosses.

TimothyO 04-30-2013 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NE1for10is? (Post 7377967)
So I shouldn't bother with gut/biphase? How's your elbow?

It wasn't for TE. I only had that once a couple of years ago when I bought a very light, very stiff frame. Haven't had a problem since switching to soft, heavier, thin-beamed frames. I was just curious about gut/multi since multi is more comfortable that poly (there were a few poly crosses that I did find uncomfortable but never developed TE since I didn't stick with them) and generally has better tension stability.

I tried a couple of Technifibre multi-crosses but can't remember which ones ATM. Probably the ones listed by TWU as having the lowest CoF. In any case, the experiment didn't work out and I went back to poly crosses.

Other TE factors include frame flex rating, beam width, and even weight/balance/SW.

Generally, to avoid TE, you want a soft frame with a thin beam with a weight of mid 11oz or higher and HL balance. This is generally a lower power setup which lets you use a soft string.

However, an ill-fitting frame and string setup can cause TE not through being too stiff but not being tuned to your swing. If you're fighting the string and frame you might be doing something subtle with your swing to compensate. The stroke might look broadly correct but there might be a hitch.

For example, recently I dropped my SW while maintaining a static weight in the high 11oz to 12oz range. I then noticed a twinge of pain in my wrist. With the lower SW my FH had become whippier and wrist-ier. Someone else pointed this out to me on-court one night so I stopped doing that and the pain went away. The frame didn't cause the issue. How I swung based on a change to the frame caused the problem.

Another common problem is that if using a setup with decent power one might be prone to break one's swing, especially if you have decent technique and are used to taking a full stroke. Suddenly, that full stroke is launching balls long so you mod your swing, but maybe not in a smooth manner. It starts at the old speed and then towards contact it decelerates putting stress on your elbow. I sometimes do that in mixed doubles for fear of hitting a lady with the ball. Fear of whacking a lady friend in the face with the ball causes me to break my swing and hurt my arm as I decelerate all that mass with poor technique. Instead I should just swing slower or more compact but I'm not good enough to keep changing my swing all the time. I'm just trying to be consistent!

mikeler 04-30-2013 09:44 AM

If you really want spin in a softer setup, try full beds of RIP Control or Dunlop Hexy Fiber (won't last long for string breakers)


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