Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Tennis Tips/Instruction (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   mxmx serve (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=446421)

mxmx 11-22-2012 10:34 PM

mxmx serve
 
It's been a while that I've been here...and I finally got the chance to take some footage of my serve as some may have suggested I do...

The balls were extremely flat and smooth, so much so that I struggled to even control the bounce - but it is footage nonetheless. I would really need to make plan to do this again with newer balls. Anyways...scary how much slower ball movement actually appears on camera. I guess the pro's really must strike the ball well :shock: Would like to hear any feedback guys :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv0D5...ature=youtu.be

Cheetah 11-23-2012 01:03 AM

I can't remember the last time I saw anyone pick up a tennis ball w/ their hands.

mxmx 11-23-2012 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah (Post 7029670)
I can't remember the last time I saw anyone pick up a tennis ball w/ their hands.

Hehe...come to think of it...it is rather funny. I did not have a basket so to speak :P I tried to keep the vid size as small as possible, and i guess i thought i'd save time

LeeD 11-23-2012 08:55 AM

Not bad.
I'd take more time between each serve, since you HAVE the time, to concentrate on storing up the energy, and then hit the ball. Don't just go thru the motions when you serve.
Maybe more sideways.

Cheetah 11-23-2012 12:57 PM

learn to pick up balls or be forever hopeless http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns_Ac-wtTic

psv255 11-23-2012 01:29 PM

When Cheetah's advice is on picking up balls, you know you're doing something right :)

But in all seriousness, two things that stand out to me/you might want to try:

1. Turn your shoulders more when loading up to the trophy pose
2. If you crank it up, you may end up hitting yourself in the leg; f you're hitting a kick serve, follow through more to the right of your body, and if slice/flat, more to the left. Either way, you'll avoid your legs :wink:

That being said, I really like how fluid and easy it looks, and you seem to get a lot of power from it, not to mention that you seem to know where you want to place it. Very nice serve!

MindoverMatter 11-23-2012 01:58 PM

The first thing that I noticed was your follow through

I'm not exactly sure what's going on, but your racquet seems to stop before it completes the arc that a follow through generally follows, and you slow the racquet down a lot here. You should have the mindset of keeping the racquet going and continuing through the swing, speeding through contact and not consciously slowing the racquet after you hit the ball

UCSF2012 11-24-2012 07:18 AM

The racket should be to your side, on the left, when you're finished with the swing. Right now, it's in front of you. That means you have to consciously slow down the swing in order to not hit yourself

boramiNYC 11-25-2012 09:12 PM

see if you can incorporate more hip and torso rotation. but this would be a big change esp the stance.

sansaephanh 11-25-2012 11:06 PM

Man I can't even get that much pop from my form anymore. I'm all befuddled. Great pace/placement.

if you wanna keep your quick timing, go for this =P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0AXyjMVkKY

charliefedererer 11-26-2012 06:48 AM

Pretty good use of your body and good arm (pronation) movement.

You have some good advice above already. But adding in the greater shoulder rotation will take a long time to get the timing down.

What I would recommend you working on first is the following:

1. Get a more agressive shoulder angle by getting your tossing arm up straighter.



In pic 1, Pete has his shoulder angle so steep that his tossing shoulder is straight up, and his hitting shoulder is straight down.
[Note that over the hitting his sequence in pic 10, he will end up with his hitting shoulder straight up, and his tossing shoulder is straight down. That reversal takes his arm through a longer distance, giving more time to build up speed.]


2. Don't drop your tossing arm too soon - it looks like you are letting your tossing arm drift down too early.
If you let your tossing arm start to drift down to early, you will lose that steep shoulder angle I recommend above.



Look how long Pete's tossing arm stays straight up in the above photos from pic 3- pic 9 while he is increasing his knee bend and forming more of a bow shape to get into his optimum trophy position to exlplode from.

3. Get a little more lean back of the upper body. See pics 3-9 above. As you have your tossing arm up and are then bending your knees and getting into more of a bow shape, bend back FROM THE KNEES WITH YOUR HEELS OFF THE COURT (not by arching your back) to get more of the lean back you see Pete gets by pic 9 in his trophy position.
[This will not only help your swing, but help prevent a shoulder injury from opening up the shoulder angle, with less impingement on the most superior of the rotator cuff tendons (supraspinatus).]


As you do this, you will notice you've got to change the angle of your racquet so it appears that you are not hitting with as straight an arm through racquet angle as you currently do.

But that means you will have a better pronation movement - with the increased power that a more powerful pronation will give you.


You can see this appearance of the racquet looking at more of an angle to the hand at ball impact in pic 19 above. But notice in the preceeding pics how the racquet/arm can be pronated through a greater distance for more power, plus the greater low to high motion for more spin.


4. "You've got to drop the left shoulder" - Jim McLennan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s
In this video, Jim emphasizes that getting great shoulder over shoulder action is good for your shoulder - there is no pinching of the rotator cuff.

But this is also the way to fully utilize your upper body movement for maximal power and spin.

Look at that first sequence of the Sampras serve above. In pic 1 his tossing shoulder is straight up and his hitting shoulder is straight down.
His shoulder angle totally reverses in the next sequences, so that at ball strike (pic 7) his hitting shoulder is straight up and his tossing shoulder is straight down.





Again, I think you can incorporate all these tips fairly easily into your current already pretty good serve.



After incorporating these, I think you THEN can go on to incorporating the big shoulder turn that will get you even more power.



But as you can see from the above sequence where Pete ends up with his back facing the court that this needs to start during the ball toss, and I think for most this harder to add in than the above, even though it should eventually be your goal.

mxmx 11-27-2012 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 7029952)
Not bad.
I'd take more time between each serve, since you HAVE the time, to concentrate on storing up the energy, and then hit the ball. Don't just go thru the motions when you serve.
Maybe more sideways.

I was very rushed between the serves only for the sake of the video size. I normally take a bit longer, although i sometimes rush between first and second serves.

The more sideways part, is something i will be looking into, thank you :)

mxmx 11-27-2012 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah (Post 7030232)
learn to pick up balls or be forever hopeless http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns_Ac-wtTic

I can pick up the ball in ALL the above ways or at least versions thereof, except "expert" way, which is impractical. I also pick up balls using just my foot (soccer method) But doing any of these, would slow me down in the video and make it longer :)

mxmx 11-27-2012 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psv255 (Post 7030276)
When Cheetah's advice is on picking up balls, you know you're doing something right :)

But in all seriousness, two things that stand out to me/you might want to try:

1. Turn your shoulders more when loading up to the trophy pose
2. If you crank it up, you may end up hitting yourself in the leg; f you're hitting a kick serve, follow through more to the right of your body, and if slice/flat, more to the left. Either way, you'll avoid your legs :wink:

That being said, I really like how fluid and easy it looks, and you seem to get a lot of power from it, not to mention that you seem to know where you want to place it. Very nice serve!

hehe :P

1. hmm...will need to look into this - thanks :)
2. I tried to serve first serves more here...My kick/2nd serve is generally "better" or more consistent than my first. My first serves is not as good as I want it to be. Not to make any excuses, but the racket I'm serving with, does not feel great at point of contact. Too much flex and too little power - lead helps, but will be serving with new rackets in a month or so and also hopefully newer balls.

Thanks for the compliments dude :)

mxmx 11-27-2012 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MindoverMatter (Post 7030296)
The first thing that I noticed was your follow through

I'm not exactly sure what's going on, but your racquet seems to stop before it completes the arc that a follow through generally follows, and you slow the racquet down a lot here. You should have the mindset of keeping the racquet going and continuing through the swing, speeding through contact and not consciously slowing the racquet after you hit the ball

Do you mean at the end of the follow through? Not sure where you mean. All i can think of, is that the pronation is causing me to kind of not flow through enough at the end of the serve possibly. (could be that I'm sub-consciously trying to recover after the serve) - not sure what it is though....but i agree that a serve should rather have one movement than jerky segmented ones.

mxmx 11-27-2012 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UCSF2012 (Post 7030856)
The racket should be to your side, on the left, when you're finished with the swing. Right now, it's in front of you. That means you have to consciously slow down the swing in order to not hit yourself

hmmm....it is hard for me to pronate AND end to the left. (i have actually a few years back hit myself on the shins twice in a row on exactly the same place lol - but this was before i even knew what pronation was)

mxmx 11-27-2012 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramiNYC (Post 7032777)
see if you can incorporate more hip and torso rotation. but this would be a big change esp the stance.

I have a problem though...even though I want to do what you are speaking of...lead with the hip like a bow, land on the left leg and whatnot...i kind of have a bad left knee (overuse aside from tennis or possible injury). In this vid, my leg and hip movement is not what it normally is or what i would like it to be...

It sometimes feels like i really land quite hard on the left foot...and even in my groundstrokes my split step is sometimes too hard.
I am actually trying to learn a less demanding technique on the knee without having to only use my arm, and without losing power. Not sure if thats possible...but compromise is...so somewhere I will need to compromise.

mxmx 11-27-2012 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sansaephanh (Post 7032840)
Man I can't even get that much pop from my form anymore. I'm all befuddled. Great pace/placement.

if you wanna keep your quick timing, go for this =P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0AXyjMVkKY

Is that your serve?
I like most of it, except for the quick toss up, almost hitting the serve on the rise lol. My opinion is, that with a different toss up, you will have even a more powerful serve.

EDIT: lol...i guess he's a famous player on the ATP *blush*

How do you judge pace on my serve? It looks really slow on my vid.

mxmx 11-27-2012 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliefedererer (Post 7033124)
Pretty good use of your body and good arm (pronation) movement.

You have some good advice above already. But adding in the greater shoulder rotation will take a long time to get the timing down.

What I would recommend you working on first is the following:...

[/IMG]
[/IMG]
[/IMG]

But as you can see from the above sequence where Pete ends up with his back facing the court that this needs to start during the ball toss, and I think for most this harder to add in than the above, even though it should eventually be your goal.

Thank you for a very intensive and valuable post. It makes sense, especially the shoulder part and not dropping the left arm too quick. On the legs part, I may have trouble physically with my bad knee....any tips on protecting my legs better? With the use of my legs and stomach muscles, i have learnt to protect my back. But now it seems, i did not protect my legs enough.

The pronation pic you posted, is quite valuable for someone I am trying to teach how to serve. I would expect however, a more stretched out wrist? Am i wrong? Or is it possibly different how woman do it these days?

charliefedererer 11-28-2012 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mxmx (Post 7034367)
Thank you for a very intensive and valuable post. It makes sense, especially the shoulder part and not dropping the left arm too quick. On the legs part, I may have trouble physically with my bad knee....any tips on protecting my legs better? With the use of my legs and stomach muscles, i have learnt to protect my back. But now it seems, i did not protect my legs enough.

The pronation pic you posted, is quite valuable for someone I am trying to teach how to serve. I would expect however, a more stretched out wrist? Am i wrong? Or is it possibly different how woman do it these days?

The pronation pic is of a twist serve, so there is slightly less ulnar deviation at the wrist than a first serve.

Still, check out this video from Jim McLennan:
Racquet Angle on Serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t6bLABbebc


I was surprised at how few pics I could find of male players taken from directly in front or behind at ball impact to show the angles at their wrist and elbow.
But here are two I found:

Murray serving:


Ferrero serving





You say you have a "bad knee". Is there osteoarthritis or some type of tendon/ligament problem? If not, you may find you can have stronger legs - to help protect the knee joint - from doing squats and deadlifts, even if the weight lifted is quite modest.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse