Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Odds & Ends (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21)
-   -   The G.O.A.T F1 driver retires once and for all. (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=446553)

tistrapukcipeht 11-25-2012 10:59 AM

The G.O.A.T F1 driver retires once and for all.
 
Michael Schumacher, the best there ever was, finally retired again after a horrendous come back.

Good luck to you König!

Bobby Jr 11-25-2012 03:01 PM

This was an interesting comeback for sure - with his first comeback season especially being an unmitigated failure (beaten in every race by his team-mate .. well, once the penalty at Monaco was factored in). Glad he achieved a podium at least!

He was a talent almost beyond compare in his era but was smart enough to make sure he was in the right place with the right team and support around him. The thing that irks me (and I'm sure many others) is how he couldn't endear himself to the world more even when he was clearly number 1 - even Prost used to make an effort - and why he routinely would make use of unfair advantage or plain cheat to get what he wanted - and then explain it away as if it never happened. Clearly he's a rare genius - sad to see him go without being able to show much of his previous magic in more than a couple of overtaking moves.

TennisLovaLova 11-26-2012 03:15 AM

GOAT in the electronic era maybe
the absolute goat is and will always be Ayrton Senna

tistrapukcipeht 11-26-2012 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Jr (Post 7032459)
This was an interesting comeback for sure - with his first comeback season especially being an unmitigated failure (beaten in every race by his team-mate .. well, once the penalty at Monaco was factored in). Glad he achieved a podium at least!

He was a talent almost beyond compare in his era but was smart enough to make sure he was in the right place with the right team and support around him. The thing that irks me (and I'm sure many others) is how he couldn't endear himself to the world more even when he was clearly number 1 - even Prost used to make an effort - and why he routinely would make use of unfair advantage or plain cheat to get what he wanted - and then explain it away as if it never happened. Clearly he's a rare genius - sad to see him go without being able to show much of his previous magic in more than a couple of overtaking moves.

That's the difference between the him and all others, He was real on and off the camera, what you see is what he is, no lies, not a pretender like most would be, He was there to win, not to hang out, almost a "bad-boy" only because He was that guy, not to mention that he was the best professional in the history of this sport as well, hard worker, never a cry-baby. He was just himself.

I have been watching F1 since 86, Piquet punching Salazar, Prost trying to be someone He wasn't, Senna always whining and complaining when He didn't get what he wanted ( ALA Nadal), now you have a fake Hamilton, Alonso who complains a lot as well.

Schumacher didn't care about others, like most didn't but pretended so, he minded his own business and did what He needed to, I loved when He got a seat on F1 and from the get go never bowed to anybody. Either people hated him because of that or loved him because of that, I personally loved it, F1 isn't tennis, where everybody is friendly, practice with each other pretend all to be the nicest person, F1 is the jungle, and Schumacher came to the jungle to beat everybody- became the best there ever- nobody comes even close. He took Ferrari a garbage made it the best won more than everybody.

The come back was awful, he couldn't practice as much as he needed and Mercedes had bought a team that hadn't developed a car since the beginning of previous year's season, so he got in a hot see to start off, but who would deny $30 mil Euros a year to enjoy himself without having anything to prove at all??

hollywood9826 11-26-2012 05:12 AM

You are just lucky that ole number 3 the intimidator stayed in nascar and never went to that f1. sr would have beasted and goated all over those euro f1 panisies in nothing more than a chevy impala, all while driving one handed drinking a can of bud with a dip of skoal in bottom lip and a winston in his mouth.

tistrapukcipeht 11-26-2012 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennisLovaLova (Post 7032930)
GOAT in the electronic era maybe
the absolute goat is and will always be Ayrton Senna

I don't even have words for such rubbish statement, :oops:

NadalAgassi 11-26-2012 05:48 PM

I for one do not consider Michael Schmuacher the best or GOAT F1 Driver of all time. Maybe the greatest in the sense he probably has the best stats, but that is it. The vast majority of his dominance is through a ridiculously dominant car. He did win 2 titles with Benneton who were never the dominant car, but many have won titles with a car further off the top than that, but all others were won in a dominant Ferrari killing all other cars. The years the Ferrari wasnt the fastest he didnt win, even over clearly inferior drivers like Jacques Villeneuve for instance, even though he sometimes came close. If Vettel matches or surpasses his # of F1 drivers titles with 7 or 8, will he be conceded as better? After all the fastest car excuse is also true of Michael, but to an even greater degree as this was the all time height of Ferrari's power. Even his relatively mediocre teammate Ruebens Barichello won many races and was often 2nd in the drivers championships. He was also aided by team orders quite often, even so blatantly displayed as a few races his teammate had to pull over near the finishing line allowing him to pass for the win, until finally the foot came down so hard one of those times they had to be more subtle. No doubt an amazing champion, one of the all time greats, and probably the most winningest driver of all time but for me not quite the #1. BBC recently came out with a list of the 20 greatest F1 Drivers ever and I tend to agree with, especialy when they rated Michael:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17299158

Quote:

Number 1 - Ayrton Senna

The greatness of the man and the brilliance of his driving is remembered easily, the occasional darkness of his psyche perhaps less so.

Number 2 - Juan Manuel Fangio

Juan Manuel Fangio set records so immense that, in percentage terms, they will surely never be beaten.

Number 3 - Jim Clark

Jim Clark towered over his era, a period when he made many grands prix mind-numbingly boring. Yes, the Lotus was often the best car, but Clark's supremacy was not in doubt.

Number 4 - Michael Schumacher

Michael Schumacher's monumental achievements came about through a perfect storm of an exceptionally talented and hard-working driver, ground-breaking technical achievement, a bottomless pit of money and a ruthless management that exploited every last avenue to its benefit...


Number 5 - Alain Prost

Alain Prost drove like poetry and was an integral part of one of the greatest rivalries sport has ever known...

Number 6 - Stirling Moss

Sir Stirling Moss is the ultimate proof that statistics count only for so much when assessing the worth of a grand prix driver...

Number 7 - Jackie Stewart

Sir Jackie Stewart's enduring legacy stretches much further than 27 grand prix wins in 99 races, three world championships and being one of the greatest drivers ever to set foot in a Formula 1 car. It is that he had a bigger effect on his sport than arguably any man in history...

Number 8 - Sebastian Vettel

The Red Bull driver has undoubtedly had a stellar career so far - 22 grand prix victories, at a rate of more than one in four races, 33 pole positions and the youngest double world champion in history. All by the age of 25 and in just five seasons in F1...

Number 9 - Niki Lauda

Just 42 days after suffering horrendous burns in a crash at the Nurburgring, Lauda, swathed in bandages, was grinding out a determined fourth-place finish in Monza. It was a moment that defined the Austrian's revered career...

Number 10 - Fernando Alonso

Alonso's standing has been affirmed by his majestic form in 2012 as he moved on to 30 grand prix victories and started his pursuit of a third world title. An F1 career that began in 2001 could yet become even more sensational...

Number 11 – Alberto Ascari

In 1952, the first of the two consecutive world titles he secured with Ferrari, Ascari won every championship F1 race bar the first. Heading into the final race of the 1953 season, he had won 11 of the previous 13 grands prix...

Number 12 - Gilles Villeneuve

Gilles Villeneuve won only six grands prix in a career that spanned a little over four years, yet 30 years after his death his name still shines out like a beacon as a symbol of the heroic qualities that to many make up the very essence of a grand prix driver...

Number 13 - Nigel Mansell

Nigel Mansell was the personification of drama in a Formula 1 car.

Whether it be daring overtaking manoeuvres, his muscular handling of some of the sport's defining cars, or the histrionics and apparent persecution complex that accompanied much of his career, there was never a dull moment when the moustachioed Midlander was around...

Number 14 - Mika Hakkinen

Michael Schumacher says his toughest rival in his first career was Mika Hakkinen, which is quite a compliment from a man who also raced against Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost and lost his final world championship battle to Fernando Alonso...

Number 15 - Lewis Hamilton

When Lewis Hamilton burst onto the Formula 1 scene in 2007, taking on and often beating the reigning world champion Fernando Alonso in equal cars, in Italy they gave him the nickname 'Il Phenomeno' - the Phenomenon...

Number 16 - Nelson Piquet

Few drivers have had perceptions of them shift as dramatically throughout their careers as Nelson Piquet.

For a while in the mid-1980s, Piquet was regarded as the best driver in the world but, as his career went on, his stock fell and at the end he slipped out of F1 almost unnoticed - and largely unlamented...

Number 17 - Emerson Fittipaldi

Emerson Fittipaldi was a trailblazer in more ways than one.

He was the man who paved the way for future generations of Brazilian drivers to make their country synonymous with Formula 1...

Number 18 - Jack Brabham

Sir Jack Brabham is one of a select band of just eight drivers who have won the world title three times or more, but his achievements go far beyond that. He is also the only man to have won a title in a car bearing his own name...

Number 19 - Graham Hill

Damon Hill makes a thought-provoking observation about his father Graham.

Despite winning two Formula 1 titles, as well as being the only man to win the 'triple crown' of F1 world championship, Le Mans and Indy 500, Graham Hill always had the image of a 'trier' - a man who made it to the top through hard graft, rather than the easy talent of his contemporary Jim Clark...

Number 20 - Jochen Rindt

Throughout Formula 1 history, there have been drivers who, through ability and charisma, have left an impression that transcends their limited results. Jochen Rindt, number 20 on BBC F1's list of the greatest drivers of all time, is one such man...

The only things I disagree with are Alonso's ranking, should be higher, probably somewhere from 6-8, and bumping Vettel down behind Alonso. Also disagree with Hamilton being on the list. Should be bumped off and replaced by Raikkonen. Other than that pretty much perfect. IMO Senna imparticular (comparing someone close to the same era) at his best was definitely better than Schumacher at his best, but sadly we never got to discover in entirety who was better due to his tragic passing, but many would argue for Senna and many for Michael, but obviously the people who selected this list side with Senna.

If Alonso can reach 4 or 5 F1 drivers titles somehow though I think I would rate him the best ever. Why? Since it is looking increasingly likely, with Ferrari's days of producing the fastest cars seemingly a thing of the past for the moment, and a long contract with Ferrari already set, he will go through virtually his whole career without ever having the fastest car. On top of that he missed several other titles by a whisker now with far from the fastest car as well. Renault which he won two F1 titles with was far from the fastest those years, even though they were still a top 3 or 4 car for the only time of their career which probably showed another of Alonso's great contributions, aiding in the car development. The only year he arguably had the best car was his one year with McLaren where he and Hamilton's hissy fit sabatoged both and allowed Raikkonen in a slower Ferrari to came from way behind to beat both for the drivers title at the end.

tistrapukcipeht 11-26-2012 06:05 PM

I don't really care what you think nor the BBC ranking. BBC is a joke, what do they know.

Useless arguments all over.

Of course Alonso won the 2 titles with Renault with Renault being the best car, although at the end of his last title Ferrari had already been faster, but with the engine breaking in Suzuka, the problem in the qualifying in Brazil, the flat tire when passing Fisichela and having to run the entire lap just to pit and put new tyres on probably don't tell the story.

Don't forget the Michelin tires gave half second advantage to the cars using it, not to forget the FIA did everything to slow down Ferrari and stop Michael of winning more, changing the rules every year until the years they got the job done.

Senna first and Piquet 16th, that tells a lot. End of talk, believe in what you want, at the end Michael Schumacher is still the best ever until somebody wins 8 titles and have all other records.

In no way Ferrari was the best car in 2000 and 2001, they had Schumacher, the difference, He would have won the title in both competitive cars against any driver.

ramos77 11-26-2012 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennisLovaLova (Post 7032930)
GOAT in the electronic era maybe
the absolute goat is and will always be Ayrton Senna

x2


schumacher had team mates that pulled over to the side of the road when he was behind them.

Senna had the likes of Prost to deal with. we will never know how many titles he would have won.

He had the most raw skills of any driver IMO.

PSNELKE 11-27-2012 02:05 AM

LMFAO Vettel ahead of Alonso??

Nothing to add there.

ollinger 11-27-2012 09:16 AM

The "sport" of auto racing doesn't particularly demand youth. Paul Newman co-drove a Porsche 935 to a 2nd place finish at LeMans when he was in his 50s, won a pair of SCCA GT1 championships in his 60s, won the GTS championship at 24 hours of Daytona when he was 70, and last drove in the Daytona race when he was 80. He started racing at 47.

NadalAgassi 11-27-2012 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tistrapukcipeht (Post 7034102)
Of course Alonso won the 2 titles with Renault with Renault being the best car

Dont make me laugh. Overall for the year McLaren the year of Alonso's first title, and Ferrari the year of his second title were both much faster and everyone knows it. Everyone except you apparently. Look where Renault were immediately once Alonso left them, LOL!


Quote:

at the end Michael Schumacher is still the best ever until somebody wins 8 titles and have all other records.
So if Vettel wins 8 F1 titles in a dominant Red Bull you are conceding him better than Schumacher with no excuses of the car. Good to know.


I already knew you were a bit delusional when you denied Rosburg has been better than Schumacher the last couple years in the same car, even though every single statistic between them indicates it (and yes I know that Schmacher isnt in his prime and I am not judging his overall abilities based on that, but that is aside the point). Sometimes love is blind (or fandom).

NadalAgassi 11-27-2012 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramos77 (Post 7034168)
x2


schumacher had team mates that pulled over to the side of the road when he was behind them.

Senna had the likes of Prost to deal with. we will never know how many titles he would have won.

He had the most raw skills of any driver IMO.

Agreed, Senna > Schumacher. I could Schumacher at #2 perhaps.

tistrapukcipeht 11-27-2012 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramos77 (Post 7034168)
x2


schumacher had team mates that pulled over to the side of the road when he was behind them.

Senna had the likes of Prost to deal with. we will never know how many titles he would have won.

He had the most raw skills of any driver IMO.

Didn't Senna have Berger helping him out in 1992??

Didn't Senna vetoed, Mansell and/or Michael Schumacher to be his team mate in 94?

I'm teaching you right here what you don't know, there is a lot of things about Senna that most didn't know, his contract with Williams and how it happened not many knew, that's the reason why Mansell couldn't come back in 94 from Indy, same thing happened with Prost in 93, didn't not allow Schumacher to be his team mate, they all knew what would have happened.
Senna will never, not even in his best dream be in the same league

tistrapukcipeht 11-27-2012 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi (Post 7034840)
Dont make me laugh. Overall for the year McLaren the year of Alonso's first title, and Ferrari the year of his second title were both much faster and everyone knows it. Everyone except you apparently. Look where Renault were immediately once Alonso left them, LOL!




So if Vettel wins 8 F1 titles in a dominant Red Bull you are conceding him better than Schumacher with no excuses of the car. Good to know.


I already knew you were a bit delusional when you denied Rosburg has been better than Schumacher the last couple years in the same car, even though every single statistic between them indicates it (and yes I know that Schmacher isnt in his prime and I am not judging his overall abilities based on that, but that is aside the point). Sometimes love is blind (or fandom).

Your lack of knowledge and information is equal of a 15 y.o that just started to watch F1.

Renault had a much better car and better tires (Michelin) for both years and Alonso won, in fact Schumacher didn't even contend for the title in 2005. Renault was far the best car of 2005 even won the Constructor Championship as well, Schumacher probably won 1 race, if much.

In 2006 if it wasn't for Schumacher Ferrari would have succumbed just like the prior season, and again Renault won both titles, i wonder why.

It doesn't matter the car, if Vettel wins 8 titles, wins 92 races, 68 poles, more hat tricks, more fastest laps and all other records, yes he will be the best ever, is sports who wins more is the best, that's that simple.

tistrapukcipeht 11-27-2012 05:42 PM

Senna was the Nadal of F1, always whining and crying about everything.

Senna drove probably one of the best cars in history of the sport, the Mclaren 88, only lost one race because Mansell was a beast on his day, faster and better driver than both Senna and Prost, only problem was his consistency, therefore he didn't win as much.

It's going good to remind everybody that season of 91, 92 and 93 until half of the season, Schumacher drove with stick shift while all others had semi automatic gear shift.

Let's not forget as well that Schumacher finished in front of Senna in his first full season, 1992, despite having worse equipment. Senna had traction control on his Mclaren while Schumacher was still driving with stick shift and V8 engine against Ferrari's V12, Renault V10...

As you talk a lot about Alonso, don't forget about what caused Briattore to be expelled from F1's world and now with Ferrari don't forget about changing gear box of Massa's car so He can get another position, don't forget about Massa having to let him go by a few times.

And the irony of all, this happens in every successful team, it is F1, there is nothing wrong with it, so for those who like to nitpick, be reasonable when you choose to do it.

No matter what it is, Senna drove 10 years and only won when He had the best car, never He won a title with an inferior car, the 1991 for half of the season he counted on a better car and Williams' reliability problems and mistakes by "El Lion" .

Senna may be the 4th or 5th greatest F1 driver until now, bot nowhere near top 3.

TennisLovaLova 12-01-2012 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tistrapukcipeht (Post 7035451)
Senna was the Nadal of F1, always whining and crying about everything.

Senna drove probably one of the best cars in history of the sport, the Mclaren 88, only lost one race because Mansell was a beast on his day, faster and better driver than both Senna and Prost, only problem was his consistency, therefore he didn't win as much.

It's going good to remind everybody that season of 91, 92 and 93 until half of the season, Schumacher drove with stick shift while all others had semi automatic gear shift.

Let's not forget as well that Schumacher finished in front of Senna in his first full season, 1992, despite having worse equipment. Senna had traction control on his Mclaren while Schumacher was still driving with stick shift and V8 engine against Ferrari's V12, Renault V10...

As you talk a lot about Alonso, don't forget about what caused Briattore to be expelled from F1's world and now with Ferrari don't forget about changing gear box of Massa's car so He can get another position, don't forget about Massa having to let him go by a few times.

And the irony of all, this happens in every successful team, it is F1, there is nothing wrong with it, so for those who like to nitpick, be reasonable when you choose to do it.

No matter what it is, Senna drove 10 years and only won when He had the best car, never He won a title with an inferior car, the 1991 for half of the season he counted on a better car and Williams' reliability problems and mistakes by "El Lion" .

Senna may be the 4th or 5th greatest F1 driver until now, bot nowhere near top 3.

I dont even have words for such rubbish statements.

TERRASTAR18 12-02-2012 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tistrapukcipeht (Post 7033010)
That's the difference between the him and all others, He was real on and off the camera, what you see is what he is, no lies, not a pretender like most would be, He was there to win, not to hang out, almost a "bad-boy" only because He was that guy, not to mention that he was the best professional in the history of this sport as well, hard worker, never a cry-baby. He was just himself.

I have been watching F1 since 86, Piquet punching Salazar, Prost trying to be someone He wasn't, Senna always whining and complaining when He didn't get what he wanted ( ALA Nadal), now you have a fake Hamilton, Alonso who complains a lot as well.

Schumacher didn't care about others, like most didn't but pretended so, he minded his own business and did what He needed to, I loved when He got a seat on F1 and from the get go never bowed to anybody. Either people hated him because of that or loved him because of that, I personally loved it, F1 isn't tennis, where everybody is friendly, practice with each other pretend all to be the nicest person, F1 is the jungle, and Schumacher came to the jungle to beat everybody- became the best there ever- nobody comes even close. He took Ferrari a garbage made it the best won more than everybody.

The come back was awful, he couldn't practice as much as he needed and Mercedes had bought a team that hadn't developed a car since the beginning of previous year's season, so he got in a hot see to start off, but who would deny $30 mil Euros a year to enjoy himself without having anything to prove at all??

how is ham fake? but mr. corporate, schummy is sooo real? you act like you know these ppl personally.....schuumy would run ppl off the road, a real class act he was....but i guess its typical german trolling from you.

TERRASTAR18 12-02-2012 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tistrapukcipeht (Post 7035436)
Your lack of knowledge and information is equal of a 15 y.o that just started to watch F1.

Renault had a much better car and better tires (Michelin) for both years and Alonso won, in fact Schumacher didn't even contend for the title in 2005. Renault was far the best car of 2005 even won the Constructor Championship as well, Schumacher probably won 1 race, if much.

In 2006 if it wasn't for Schumacher Ferrari would have succumbed just like the prior season, and again Renault won both titles, i wonder why.

It doesn't matter the car, if Vettel wins 8 titles, wins 92 races, 68 poles, more hat tricks, more fastest laps and all other records, yes he will be the best ever, is sports who wins more is the best, that's that simple.

and how many titles did vettel win at torro rosso again in a newey-less car.

SempreSami 12-02-2012 01:03 PM

That dirty move on Hill in 1994 stained his career.

*inb4 the apologists moan about the FIA suspending him that year*


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:11 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse