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-   -   USTA - Adult League/Age changes - DON'T LIKE IT (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=446846)

alitennis 11-28-2012 08:59 PM

USTA - Adult League/Age changes - DON'T LIKE IT
 
When the USTA announced last year your changes in the leagues with the addition of the age groups, I knew it was going to be a detriment to my age group, 18-39. I knew it was going to affect mine and my peers' opportunities to play one way or another. When the USTA sent me a survey, I shared my thoughts. I also shared them with the league coordinator of the local league for which I was playing at the time.

Now here we are, ratings are out, and spring USTA teams are forming. And just as I thought, I cannot play on my prior 4.0 day team now. I was the only player under 40 on my team. In the Charlotte metro league, it was announced recently that 18 + 4.0 day teams will play on Monday mornings, and 40 + 4.0 get to play on Fridays. Of course there are night or weekend leagues I could choose to play in, however there are problems with that also for my age group as well.

Let me outline my reasons I feel this is a detriment to 18-39 year olds below.

-18-39 year old women are the busiest group of women that play in the USTA. Most women work that are in my age group, yet we could get away during the day on Fridays, as Fridays tend to be less busy for working women/mothers/stay at home mothers than MONDAY MORNINGS. I'm not sure where the logic is here. 40+ year old day players typically don't work or have school aged children to tend to. Doesn't it make sense for them to play on Monday mornings?

-Working mothers have a hard time playing in the evenings or on the weekends because of long work hours and family committments, so Friday mornings were a decent time to be able to get a match in.

-Stay at home 18-39 mothers (who you may think can play Monday mornings) also can't typically play in the evenings or on the weekends because of after school, sports, and other family committments, so Friday mornings were a good alternative. Also, have you ever tried to get children out the door to school on Monday mornings? It's hard any day of the week, but Mondays are the worst. So this now also alienates many 18-39 year old stay at home moms from playing because Monday mornings or weeknights are bad options for moms.

-It's not fair that we are inherently limited in how much we can play. If I were 40, I could play two times. I could play with my age group and with the lower group, and so on. That is not fair to my age group.

-I am a member of a club that I pay hard earned money to be a part of. I want to play with my clubmates. I can't do that because as you all know, most clubs CANNOT facilitate night teams. I bet you maybe 1 out of 15 can, if that. So I can't play with the ladies I know well and play with most of the time. If I am able to play in the evening, I am forced to play at public courts that are often times in dangerous, poorly lit, unmonitored places (at least in Charlotte), AND I have to pay extra fees for playing at public courts in addition to the league fees I am already playing. You also lose the "team spirit" when you don't play with ladies you know and play with all the time.

What will happen is this... 18-39 year old ladies will start to fall out of the USTA because of lack of teams/opportunities to play for and poor time options to play. It will degrade competition and the good level of play we get when we face a variety of player styles, ages, etc for all of us, but particularly the 18-39 age group. Do you really want to lose a large majority of this age group? Aren't you kind of cutting yourself off at the knees by alienating your future, long term league players?

I understand there a a few different times to play, but come on... 18+ on Monday mornings and 40+ on Friday mornings (4.0)? Don't you think that needs to be reversed for the reasons I have outlined above, and many more that I don't want to state that could seem presumptious but are likely true? I know it is likely too late to make these changes for spring 2013, but you REALLY need to think long and hard about this decision for the future years. I can't think of hardly any 18-39 day lady that I know that could swing a Monday morning. You might as well eliminate that timeslot.

Thank you in advance for considering my points. If you feel the same way I do email your regional, state, and local USTA coordinators. You can find them on the USTA website. Have a good evening... I need to go find another team to play on now.

beernutz 11-28-2012 09:19 PM

I'm enjoying playing 40+ this fall immensely because I have yet to play a self-rated 19 year old former #1 for his high school or a self rated 23 year old former junior college player like I did last season in 18+. My experience has been that the biggest problem with self-rated sandbaggers is young people and in the 40+ league I have yet to encounter even one self-rated player, much less a self-rated sandbagger.

I'm sorry 40+ is negatively affecting you but I think there are a number of assumptions and contentions in your post I don't necessarily agree with which make it hard for me to agree with your argument.

jrxl 11-28-2012 09:44 PM

Wow, you have the option of several different day/night/weekend leagues? That's awesome, I wish we had that. We have one league to choose from. With a grab bag of dates that may include weeknights, weekend mornings, weekend evenings... all in the same schedule.

floridatennisdude 11-29-2012 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrxl (Post 7037386)
Wow, you have the option of several different day/night/weekend leagues? That's awesome, I wish we had that. We have one league to choose from. With a grab bag of dates that may include weeknights, weekend mornings, weekend evenings... all in the same schedule.

That was what I was thinking. Must be nice to have these kinds of problems.

If Friday morning is the only time you can play, find a group that wants to do that. USTA isn't the end all-be all.

10sjunkie 11-29-2012 07:55 AM

Don't agree with any of your arguments. Let me outline my reasons why:

1. 18-39 year olds currently are only able to play once as it is. This isn't limiting your ability to play nor your opportunities to play due to the age restructuring. It is adding opportunities for the 40-49 year olds. I, for one, am looking forward to it.

2. You are not limited to playing only on a club team. That is your option, not obligation, to join a club and restrict your playing to only those teams. You can still play with a public park-based team.

3. I wholeheartedly disagree that 18-39 year old women are the "busiest group of women" that play league tennis. What a luxury to be able to "get away during the day on Fridays". Trust me, not all working women have that option. And look at it this way, if this age group is the busiest group of women playing USTA, it's a good thing you have limited playing ability as you wouldn't have time for more playing opportunities (see #1).

4. As for working mother having a hard time playing in the evenings or on the weekends, not true. I would think that working women have a more difficult time playing during the day as they usually work during those hours. Almost 100% of the women that I play with on all of my USTA teams are working women, most with children. There is no way that we are able to get away on a Monday or Friday morning to play. Evenings and weekends are when the majority of our playing time occurs.

5. I'm sure that your league match times are not occurring on Monday mornings when your children are getting ready for school. If I had a guess, I'd say the matches will be played when they are in school so I don't see what the problem is with getting your children to school and then going to play a tennis match, regardless of what day it is.

6. How nice that your local league coordinator has different options for you to choose from...day, evening and weekend. Not an option in most places.

Cindysphinx 11-29-2012 10:18 AM

I'm not thrilled with the new age bracketing, but for different reasons.

It sounds like the real problem in OP's league is that no one has thought this through. I think OP should voice her concerns to her local league and see if they can improve things.

FWIW, OP, my league has a ladies day league. It is 18+, three doubles. Matches can be on any weekday; there is no particular day designated for the 3.5s, for instance. This is good because even ladies who only get 1-2 days off each week can participate and play the matches that fall on their days off.

The 40+ league plays at night, 3 doubles, 2 singles. Again, we don't have set days of the week for the matches so everybody can find some matches that fall on the nights they can play.

RedWeb 11-29-2012 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7037361)
I'm enjoying playing 40+ this fall immensely because I have yet to play a self-rated 19 year old former #1 for his high school or a self rated 23 year old former junior college player like I did last season in 18+. My experience has been that the biggest problem with self-rated sandbaggers is young people and in the 40+ league I have yet to encounter even one self-rated player, much less a self-rated sandbagger.

Amen. + 10

rainman007 11-29-2012 03:31 PM

i dont like it because we struggled to field 3 adult teams now if older people choose not 2 pay 2-3 times which i wouldnt we wont have enough for 1 team or just 1 only ........ also my area is broke into 2 sessions now odd levels play jan-mar and even ratings play mar-jun........so odd number level players will have 2 pay 15 dollars extra indoor fee for every match played

NTRPolice 11-29-2012 06:07 PM

The reason why I like the changes are that old people can now choose to play younger people if they think they're good enough. It's as simple as that.

In all honesty, most of the NTRP complaints filed against players are from old people complaining about young people.

This new method will not only help cut down on that but also make it so the "social" and "for health" players can stick to themselves.

goober 11-29-2012 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7037361)
I'm enjoying playing 40+ this fall immensely because I have yet to play a self-rated 19 year old former #1 for his high school or a self rated 23 year old former junior college player like I did last season in 18+. My experience has been that the biggest problem with self-rated sandbaggers is young people and in the 40+ league I have yet to encounter even one self-rated player, much less a self-rated sandbagger.

.

It happens, but I agree that it is a lot less frequent. I have seen self rates in their 40s that are former college players or players that play regularly but are not USTA members. Among the young crowd you get the self rated sandbaggers and among the older crowd you tend to get more of the rating manipulators.

NLBwell 11-29-2012 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7037361)
I'm enjoying playing 40+ this fall immensely because I have yet to play a self-rated 19 year old former #1 for his high school or a self rated 23 year old former junior college player like I did last season in 18+.

Though I'm way past 40, the reason I won't want to play a 40+ league is that I wouldn't have the opporturnity to play these guys.

NLBwell 11-29-2012 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice (Post 7038832)
The reason why I like the changes are that old people can now choose to play younger people if they think they're good enough. It's as simple as that.

They always could.

Whatever level you are at, you aren't significantly better or worse than anyone else in that level - no matter what your age. (there are 10 USTA levels from 2.5 to 7.0)

NTRPolice 11-30-2012 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NLBwell (Post 7039241)
They always could.

Whatever level you are at, you aren't significantly better or worse than anyone else in that level - no matter what your age. (there are 10 USTA levels from 2.5 to 7.0)

Except that 5.0+ does not apply because it for all intents and purposes does not exist. And 2.5 (and now) 3.0 are almost non-existent outside of doubles leagues.

It's far more common to see a 50 or 60 year old think they're just as good as a 20 year old. This may be true at flight level play, but once you get to the playoffs and beyond these 50-somethings start making less starting lineups and will almost never touch singles.

I feel the age gap between 20's and 30's. I can only imagine what kinda rose tinted goggled someone would need to honestly believe that there isnt any difference in ability between a 20 year old former high school champ at 3.5 nationals and an overweight, balding, knee braced, 50-something.

Yes, some old people can be competitive, the same way some women can play equal to men in terms of NTRP rating.

That just isnt the norm.

With that said, I do enjoy playing against older players from time to time. These players are usually challenging me. It's these types of players that think they're good enough to play adult league at all levels. It's these types of players that I want to play.

goober 11-30-2012 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTRPolice (Post 7039273)
Except that 5.0+ does not apply because it for all intents and purposes does not exist. And 2.5 (and now) 3.0 are almost non-existent outside of doubles leagues.

It's far more common to see a 50 or 60 year old think they're just as good as a 20 year old. This may be true at flight level play, but once you get to the playoffs and beyond these 50-somethings start making less starting lineups and will almost never touch singles.

I feel the age gap between 20's and 30's. I can only imagine what kinda rose tinted goggled someone would need to honestly believe that there isnt any difference in ability between a 20 year old former high school champ at 3.5 nationals and an overweight, balding, knee braced, 50-something.

Yes, some old people can be competitive, the same way some women can play equal to men in terms of NTRP rating.

That just isnt the norm.

With that said, I do enjoy playing against older players from time to time. These players are usually challenging me. It's these types of players that think they're good enough to play adult league at all levels. It's these types of players that I want to play.

At the 3.5 level there are ton of guys in their 40-50s that could beat 20-30 year olds. At that level skill is more important than physical play. Nationals are really not a measure of 3.5 level play. Everybody there are basically 4.0s to even weak 4.5. In singles, athletic ability and physcial prowess doesn't become a factor till upper level 4.0 and 4.5. But even then a lot 20-30 year olds will lose to older guys that are dropping down from 5.0.

In doubles at the 3.5-4.0 levels, the older players are usually better than young players. Every person we have taken in the 19-29 crowd on our team has been a liability in doubles.

beernutz 11-30-2012 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NLBwell (Post 7039236)
Though I'm way past 40, the reason I won't want to play a 40+ league is that I wouldn't have the opporturnity to play these guys.

Why can't you play them? I would love to play them in social or practice matches, I just don't want to play them in league matches when my team is depending on me for a win and yet I'm hopelessly overmatched from the get-go.

Cindysphinx 11-30-2012 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goober (Post 7039485)
At the 3.5 level there are ton of guys in their 40-50s that could beat 20-30 year olds. At that level skill is more important than physical play. Nationals are really not a measure of 3.5 level play. Everybody there are basically 4.0s to even weak 4.5. In singles, athletic ability and physcial prowess doesn't become a factor till upper level 4.0 and 4.5. But even then a lot 20-30 year olds will lose to older guys that are dropping down from 5.0.

In doubles at the 3.5-4.0 levels, the older players are usually better than young players. Every person we have taken in the 19-29 crowd on our team has been a liability in doubles.

+1.

As a captain, I can tell you that age has nothing whatever to do with who is stronger at singles or doubles. It is not something I consider when I am selecting players to invite or deciding who plays a must-win match. How good you are is solely a function of how good you are.

I will let you in on a little secret: We older players very much enjoy frustrating younger people. Especially the arrogant ones!

TommieF 11-30-2012 10:29 AM

In the Norcal area, I have heard that two 5.0 players can play on the 40+ 4.5 team. Is this true? The format for the
40+ is 1 singles, 2 dbls. Then playoff it goes to 2 singles, 3 dbls.
Also... can two 5.0 players play on a regular 4.5 adult league team? Norcal area.

NLBwell 11-30-2012 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beernutz (Post 7039590)
Why can't you play them? I would love to play them in social or practice matches, I just don't want to play them in league matches when my team is depending on me for a win and yet I'm hopelessly overmatched from the get-go.

I want to beat them for the glory of my team, my country, and my civilization!

OrangePower 11-30-2012 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommieF (Post 7039853)
In the Norcal area, I have heard that two 5.0 players can play on the 40+ 4.5 team. Is this true? The format for the
40+ is 1 singles, 2 dbls. Then playoff it goes to 2 singles, 3 dbls.
Also... can two 5.0 players play on a regular 4.5 adult league team? Norcal area.

2 5.0s can be on the roster. When 3 lines are playing, only 1 5.0 can be in lineup. When 5 lines, both 5.0s can play. Regular adult 4.5 does not allow 5.0s. But adult 5.0 league let's 2 5.5s roster.

TommieF 11-30-2012 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangePower (Post 7040317)
2 5.0s can be on the roster. When 3 lines are playing, only 1 5.0 can be in lineup. When 5 lines, both 5.0s can play. Regular adult 4.5 does not allow 5.0s. But adult 5.0 league let's 2 5.5s roster.

Have you heard of any plan to allow two 5.0 guys on the adult 4.5 team? Why allow 5.5's to play with 5.0 but not let the adult 4.5 league have two 5.0's?


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