Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Former Pro Player Talk (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   M. Orantes - at his best he was...? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=446890)

Frankc 11-29-2012 11:23 AM

M. Orantes - at his best he was...?
 
I have seen a few clips here and there , and Orantes seems to glide around the clay. Remember his US Open victory over Connors, but little else.

Appreciate any insights/thoughts about his talents and play when at his best... My impression was that he was a great sportsman... Thanks...

pc1 11-29-2012 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankc (Post 7038302)
I have seen a few clips here and there , and Orantes seems to glide around the clay. Remember his US Open victory over Connors, but little else.

Appreciate any insights/thoughts about his talents and play when at his best... My impression was that he was a great sportsman... Thanks...

No real stroke weaknesses. Perhaps the best touch of any player I've ever seen. When he was "on" the ball seemed to be on a string. He could beat anyone on clay and wasn't bad on other surfaces. But he was best on clay.

NLBwell 11-29-2012 04:29 PM

... beautiful to watch.

Gizo 11-29-2012 05:13 PM

Orantes was such a fun player to watch with the mixture of spins and pace, crazy angles, dropshots and lobs he had at his disposal. A true magician with a tennis ball.

His 1975 US Open title victory was truly well deserved. In his semi-final, Vilas was leading 6-4 6-1 2-6 5-0 and was love 40 up on Orantes's serve. He had those 3 match points on Orantes's serve, and then 2 more match points on his own serve in the next game. Many fans left the stadium early to beat the traffic, and missed Orantes's epic fightback to win 4-6 1-6 6-2 7-5 6-4. That match lasted until 2 am, and the next day he came back to destroy Connors in the final, using his variety and touch to toy with Jimbo and send him scurrying all over the court.

He is surely the best clay court player of the open era by far, never to have won the RG title. Of course he was leading an 18 year old Borg by 2 sets to love in the 1974 RG final, before Borg (who was always formidable in 5 set matches) made a strong recovery to win those last 3 sets very easily.

He won 30 official titles on clay, putting him in joint 4th place on the open era list alongside Borg and behind only Vilas, Muster and Nadal. He won big red clay titles at Monte-Carlo, Rome, Hamburg (twice) and Barcelona (3 times) during his career, together with the 1975 US Open title, Indianapolis (3 times) and Boston (twice) on green clay.

Away from clay he won the Canadian Open on hard courts in 1975 and the Masters on carpet in 1976.

Mustard 11-29-2012 08:01 PM

There was a strange match in the semi finals of 1978 Hamburg between Orantes and Vilas. Orantes was leading 6-0, 1-1 after less than an hour's play, when Orantes fell awkwardly and had to retire with a back injury. Vilas went on to win the title.

kiki 11-29-2012 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankc (Post 7038302)
I have seen a few clips here and there , and Orantes seems to glide around the clay. Remember his US Open victory over Connors, but little else.

Appreciate any insights/thoughts about his talents and play when at his best... My impression was that he was a great sportsman... Thanks...

A year later came back as miraculously as his Vilas USO semi, to win the Masters at the Summit against Fibak

kiki 11-29-2012 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1 (Post 7038759)
No real stroke weaknesses. Perhaps the best touch of any player I've ever seen. When he was "on" the ball seemed to be on a string. He could beat anyone on clay and wasn't bad on other surfaces. But he was best on clay.

As a junior he won Wimbledon and almost upset Roy Emerson on grass during the DC Sidney finals

As a senior he made the Wimbly semis and won the singles and the doubles Masters on a veey fast indoor carpet court
But I agree his game was perfectly adapted to clay

kiki 11-29-2012 10:30 PM

As much or more than Roche or Hoad no other top player has had to endure aa many serious injuries with no less than 7 visits to surgeon
So when he was gaining confidence he almost inmediately felt injuried which deprived him of more major titles
I still recall his last match in 1982
He was facing peak Lendl at Madrid semis and lost a pretty close match at 33 yrs age
I have never seen Lendl aknowledging and clapping his hands the way he did to Orantes

Frankc 11-30-2012 05:44 PM

Great stuff - thanks to all...
Appreciate the insights and key matches as mentioned. Didn't realize the junior record or his grass/fast court talents...

I remember really admiring his game - he sort of floated around the court and so smoothly did he manage the other's pace with precision shot making - just silken in my memory. I never saw him play much - but the impression he left with me had me hunting down a Slazenger Challenge frame ... my, they were beautiful, also...

Was he at his best in the finals of the US Open - or was Connors subpar that day...?

Mustard 11-30-2012 06:05 PM

Orantes was certainly at his best when he beat Connors in the 1975 US Open final. People thought that Orantes would be exhausted after that epic comeback win over Vilas in the semi finals, but the opposite happened, he was still riding high from the epicness of the semi final victory, and won the final easily.

Dan Lobb 12-01-2012 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizo (Post 7038839)
Orantes was such a fun player to watch with the mixture of spins and pace, crazy angles, dropshots and lobs he had at his disposal. A true magician with a tennis ball.

His 1975 US Open title victory was truly well deserved. In his semi-final, Vilas was leading 6-4 6-1 2-6 5-0 and was love 40 up on Orantes's serve. He had those 3 match points on Orantes's serve, and then 2 more match points on his own serve in the next game. Many fans left the stadium early to beat the traffic, and missed Orantes's epic fightback to win 4-6 1-6 6-2 7-5 6-4. That match lasted until 2 am, and the next day he came back to destroy Connors in the final, using his variety and touch to toy with Jimbo and send him scurrying all over the court.

He is surely the best clay court player of the open era by far, never to have won the RG title. Of course he was leading an 18 year old Borg by 2 sets to love in the 1974 RG final, before Borg (who was always formidable in 5 set matches) made a strong recovery to win those last 3 sets very easily.

He won 30 official titles on clay, putting him in joint 4th place on the open era list alongside Borg and behind only Vilas, Muster and Nadal. He won big red clay titles at Monte-Carlo, Rome, Hamburg (twice) and Barcelona (3 times) during his career, together with the 1975 US Open title, Indianapolis (3 times) and Boston (twice) on green clay.

Away from clay he won the Canadian Open on hard courts in 1975 and the Masters on carpet in 1976.

I believe that the Canadian was played on clay in the seventies.

pc1 12-01-2012 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 7040767)
Orantes was certainly at his best when he beat Connors in the 1975 US Open final. People thought that Orantes would be exhausted after that epic comeback win over Vilas in the semi finals, but the opposite happened, he was still riding high from the epicness of the semi final victory, and won the final easily.

In watching Orantes during the 1975 US Open, I felt at the time he was playing the highest quality tennis. I didn't go to the final that year but when the commentators favored Connors in the final (in retrospect it was totally logical) I was surprised because I didn't think Connors was playing nearly at Orantes's level. But I guess it was a combination of the Connors' greatness and taking into account the possible exhaustion of Orantes from the long semifinal against Vilas.

I also loved the way he toyed with Connors at the US Claycourts in 1977. It was such a great display of touch.

Mustard 12-01-2012 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb (Post 7041308)
I believe that the Canadian was played on clay in the seventies.

Up to 1973 it was on clay.

kiki 12-01-2012 10:41 AM

Orantes ahd a big problem with the spanish sports and non sports press who pressed him to achieve the records of Santana.And there was also the historical rivalry between Madrid and Barcelona.he got angered and frustrated and press published he wanted guarantees to play the highly regarded Davis Cup.he had played DC injuried and still he got criticized from the press.He and Jose Higueras, a long time clay court specialist ( 2 times semifinalist at Roland Garros and twice winner of the German Open) decided not to play anymore for Spain, that happening in the very late 70´s.Higueras opened up a tennis school in Florida, and managed Jim Courier and Roger Federer, and Orantes was named...DC captain some years after his retirement.

Politics hampered so much spanish sportsmen during those days, you know.

Besides, USO and Masters ( singles in 76 and doubles in 75),Orantes also won the very prestigious Italian Open, handling easily Jan Kodes, who had won the two previous French Open titles.He lost the 1975 final to Mexico´s Raul Ramirez, IMO, one of the best players of the 1970´s.

He won twice Montecarlo and Indianapolis, once the US P^ro at Boston and the Canadian Open at Toronto, two times at Hamburg and three more times at the prestigious Barcelona Count Godo´s Trophy.

Lost an epic RG final to Borg (Borg´s first major title) and reached once more the semis at Paris ( surprisingly beaten by frenchman patrick proisy in 1972) and the Wimbledon semis, to ilie Nastase in 1972.

He hold the record of Masters enterings until Mc Enroe and Lendl in the 80´s.He played the event from 1972 to 1977.I think he missed the 1974 tournament, but I am not sure.

krosero 12-01-2012 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 7041498)
Up to 1973 it was on clay.

Not sure when it went to hard courts, but when Orantes won it in '75 it was on clay: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...2928%2C3399025

That was his third straight year in the final, though the only participation that the ATP lists for Orantes in the Canada Masters is 1975.

Mustard 12-01-2012 10:51 AM

Vilas won his 2 Canadian Open titles in Toronto on hardcourts, in 1974 and 1976.

Dan Lobb 12-01-2012 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 7041498)
Up to 1973 it was on clay.

I think that Borowiak beat Fillol on clay in the 1977 final.

krosero 08-17-2013 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 7041525)
Vilas won his 2 Canadian Open titles in Toronto on hardcourts, in 1974 and 1976.

I have found press reports showing both those years the event was still on clay.

1974

"Okker ... said later he wasn’t used to playing on clay because of World Team Tennis which is played indoors on fast surfaces."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...g=882%2C852787

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...g=792%2C765777


1976

Newcombe: “You can’t expect to serve your way out of trouble on clay all the time.”

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...7090%2C4248808

So when did this event switch to hardcourts?

Gizo 08-17-2013 11:33 PM

I don't have any definitive evidence or anything, but from what I gather and from the sources I've read, 1979 seems the be the first year that the tournament was played on hard courts.

Even with the US Open switching venue and surface to hard courts in 1978, the 1978 edition of the Canadian Open (when Dibbs beat Clerc in the final) appears to have remained on har-tru for one extra year according to a few websites.

kiki 08-20-2013 03:21 PM

wasn´t it played at York University facilities?

at least, Borg did beat mc Enroe in 1979 there.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:30 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse