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-   -   Wrist snap question (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=446981)

bkpr 11-30-2012 10:48 AM

Wrist snap question
 
Hello.

I've recently begun hitting with a guy who's a level or so better than me. He hits with a fair bit of heat and when I ask him about it he says he snaps his wrist. When I pushed further he told me he sort of 'pushes' his wrist forward, i.e., he literally snaps his own wrist in conjunction with his kinetic chain, rather than let the natural path and speed of the racquet snap it.

Does this seem right?

Whenever I've tried to get more wrist snap action I've always used my body + arm to fling it around while my wrist is pretty limp, if you know what I mean. When reading about snapping the wrist I always assumed this was the way to do it. I've never physically tried to get my wrist snapping using my own muscles. Doing it the limp way results in very inconsistent placement and increased framings because for me, I'm not guiding my hand with my wrist muscles.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

LeeD 11-30-2012 10:53 AM

He is a better tennis player than you, just like DJ is.
He doesn't know what he's talking about, just like DJ.
Both advocate snapping the wrist.
Photos and vids prove their both wrong.
They are good/great players. They are poor analyists of their technique.

charliefedererer 11-30-2012 11:12 AM

LeeD is right ... as usual.

Trying to snap your wrist will lead to wrist and arm problems.

It sounds like you are already doing the right thing.

Pat Dougherty, the Bollettieri Academy "Serve Doctor" shows the whole arm is turning, but the wrist is kept comfortably in the same position throughout the stroke.
(You don't need the Leverage Belt to do this, so don't buy it.)
Leverage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J74XpkGKyuc

bkpr 11-30-2012 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliefedererer (Post 7040028)
LeeD is right ... as usual.

Obviously it's just me, but I have absolutely no idea what LeeD is talking about :confused: Who id DJ?

Thanks for the link. In the video there is essentially no wrist 'snapping' happening at all, it's more of a side movement or rotation, which after doing a few shadow strokes, feels quite natural. Trying to snap the wrist as I described tires out the top of my hand quickly. I guess I don't snap the wrist the way I thought I did, and maybe my partner thinks he's snapping when he's really rotating.

I'll keep that video in mind when I'm hitting next.
Thanks for your advice.

LeeD 11-30-2012 12:07 PM

"who is DJ".....
I love it. Who is the arguably #1 player on the ATP tour? Who also has interview/instruction vids of him saying he flicks his wrists on almost every shot.
BorisBecker, I hope you remember the name, says the same thing in his vids.
Vids of both players show they don't flick their wrists at all. The use the wrist as a hinge, they twist their arms with their shoulder muscles, but they don't actively use their forearm muscles to bend their wrists.

bkpr 11-30-2012 12:33 PM

I originally thought it was Djokovic, but the 'initials' threw me off :)
I have seen Djoker talk about his wrist snapping, heh.

sureshs 11-30-2012 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkpr (Post 7040127)
Obviously it's just me, but I have absolutely no idea what LeeD is talking about :confused: Who id DJ?

He is losing his mind and mixing up threads

LeeD 11-30-2012 12:41 PM

Yet still, the idea get's across correctly and in time. Isn't that wierd?
See post #6.
I cannot possibly lose something I never had in the first place.
As for mixing threads, you bet! The computer does that for me.

boramiNYC 11-30-2012 02:04 PM

when a better coordinated person says he snaps the wrist. a worse coordinated person tries to snap the wrist. these two are completely different wrist snapping. that's all I'm gonna say.

LeeD 11-30-2012 02:19 PM

DJ and Becker came from the same tennis learning school.

dominikk1985 11-30-2012 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD (Post 7039992)
He is a better tennis player than you, just like DJ is.
He doesn't know what he's talking about, just like DJ.
Both advocate snapping the wrist.
Photos and vids prove their both wrong.
They are good/great players. They are poor analyists of their technique.

Good post. many pro athletes don't really know about technique and act instinctively. they do have strong believes of course and not just play somehow (anyone would say I bend my knees and turn my shoulders) but they usually don't know much about the details. I'm pretty sure federer doesn't know a lot pronation, stretch shortening cycle or the kinematic chain.

the same is true for baseball players. any coach till recently teaches to swing down and get extended. however slow motion of high level players showed that they actually slightly uppercut and hit the ball with bent arms.

but if you ask A-rod, pujols or bonds what they do anyone of them says he swings down. a few years ago they showed bonds a video and he was really surprised he swung up because he had a strong belief that he would swing down.

you don't need to understand the swing when you have the correct FEEL but as a coach some physics understanding certainly is not a bad idea.

charliefedererer 11-30-2012 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkpr (Post 7040127)
Obviously it's just me, but I have absolutely no idea what LeeD is talking about :confused: Who id DJ?

Thanks for the link. In the video there is essentially no wrist 'snapping' happening at all, it's more of a side movement or rotation, which after doing a few shadow strokes, feels quite natural. Trying to snap the wrist as I described tires out the top of my hand quickly. I guess I don't snap the wrist the way I thought I did, and maybe my partner thinks he's snapping when he's really rotating.

I'll keep that video in mind when I'm hitting next.
Thanks for your advice.

I'm glad you liked the video and seem to have a good idea what the motion actually is.

I like you came up with your own terminology - "side movement", "rotation".


Interestingly Jim McLennan calls this movement "forearm rotation" when speaking about it in the serve.
The Pete Sampras Snap http://www.essentialtennisinstructio...-sampras-snap/


Probably the most common term you will hear for this term is "pronation".

Bruce Elliot and Brian Gordon, Ph.D. did the pioneering work to show that internal rotation at the shoulder is responsible for the whole arm rotating - it is not just the wrist or forearm - and the main forces that cause that whole arm rotation come from the shoulder area.

Obviously as the whole arm rotates, the forearm and wrist does so as well.
This probably explains why some emphasize the feeling that it is the wrist that is "snapping" around, while others feel the forearm rotation is dominant - but the whole arm is rotating.

rk_sports 11-30-2012 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7040465)
Good post. many pro athletes don't really know about technique and act instinctively. they do have strong believes of course and not just play somehow (anyone would say I bend my knees and turn my shoulders) but they usually don't know much about the details. I'm pretty sure federer doesn't know a lot pronation, stretch shortening cycle or the kinematic chain.

the same is true for baseball players. any coach till recently teaches to swing down and get extended. however slow motion of high level players showed that they actually slightly uppercut and hit the ball with bent arms.

but if you ask A-rod, pujols or bonds what they do anyone of them says he swings down. a few years ago they showed bonds a video and he was really surprised he swung up because he had a strong belief that he would swing down.

you don't need to understand the swing when you have the correct FEEL but as a coach some physics understanding certainly is not a bad idea.

very interesting!!! this will make you re-think whenever great players [NOT trained COACHES] talk technique :confused:

tenniswhisperer 12-01-2012 04:11 AM

This should make the "snap" issue clearer. The issue to focus on is to relax the wrist so that it can perform it's duty naturally. Hope this helps


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9ic0EW8Jhc&feature=plcp

JohnB 12-01-2012 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenniswhisperer (Post 7041153)
This should make the "snap" issue clearer. The issue to focus on is to relax the wrist so that it can perform it's duty naturally. Hope this helps


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9ic0EW8Jhc&feature=plcp

Good link!!

kiteboard 12-01-2012 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charliefedererer (Post 7040690)
I'm glad you liked the video and seem to have a good idea what the motion actually is.

I like you came up with your own terminology - "side movement", "rotation".


Interestingly Jim McLennan calls this movement "forearm rotation" when speaking about it in the serve.
The Pete Sampras Snap http://www.essentialtennisinstructio...-sampras-snap/


Probably the most common term you will hear for this term is "pronation".

Bruce Elliot and Brian Gordon, Ph.D. did the pioneering work to show that internal rotation at the shoulder is responsible for the whole arm rotating - it is not just the wrist or forearm - and the main forces that cause that whole arm rotation come from the shoulder area.

Obviously as the whole arm rotates, the forearm and wrist does so as well.
This probably explains why some emphasize the feeling that it is the wrist that is "snapping" around, while others feel the forearm rotation is dominant - but the whole arm is rotating.

Listen to this guy.

SystemicAnomaly 12-01-2012 10:07 AM

Ah, my work here is done! I've been preaching about the evils of the term, wrist snap, for a couple of decades now. It's great to see that the gospel has been heard by so many.

Now if I can only get more badminton players to abandon the terminology, I could die a happy man.

boramiNYC 12-01-2012 10:15 AM

but badminton players really snap their wrist sometimes, no?

SystemicAnomaly 12-01-2012 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boramiNYC (Post 7041487)
but badminton players really snap their wrist sometimes, no?

No, it is a myth there as well. I played a considerable amount of competitive badminton in the 1980s. Some wrist actions are employed (like tennis) to be sure, but the term, wrist snap, is very misleading. Power is developed primarily in the shoulder, forearm, fingers and, to some extent, in earlier links of the kinetic chain. The role of the wrist is secondary for power production. It is used for changing angles and is used for transferring power from previous links to the hand/racket.

Some 20 years ago, I recall reading a graduate paper by Dr James Poole (one of the last US badminton champions in the 50 and 60s) that was written back in the 1960s. Way back then he was talking about how the role of the wrist in badminton was grossly exaggerated. He was the 1st one that I heard talking about the concept of forearm pronation in racquet sports.

sureshs 12-01-2012 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly (Post 7041473)
Ah, my work here is done! I've been preaching about the evils of the term, wrist snap, for a couple of decades now. It's great to see that the gospel has been heard by so many.

Now if I can only get more badminton players to abandon the terminology, I could die a happy man.

What about table tennis?


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