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-   -   What can be done to reduce the cheating? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=447279)

Woolybugger 12-04-2012 04:37 AM

What can be done to reduce the cheating?
 
Sore spot in junior competitive tennis in all regions is cheating, poor sportsmanship, rudeness. I've seen it in parents who coach their kids using hand signals, foreign language, whispers behind the fence.. I've seen 11 yr olds being mean and nasty to the opponent from the very moment they're called onto the court. It quickly degenerates to bad calls, in-your-face attitude, contesting every call, etc... The game no longer becomes fun, but more like a street fight against a thug.

What are some ideas to promote better sportsmanship?

I think it starts with better education. USTA should come up with a very clear Code of Conduct. Parents and players must read and sign it before registering for any tournament. Directors should post it at the check-in desk. Refs should be enforcing it with the appropriate penalties. Coaches need to stress that they don't need to cheat to win.

Everyone wants to see a good, fair, honest match where both players bring their best tennis. No one wants to go home feeling cheated. Parents - please stay out of your kids' matches. Players - please, please, just play tennis and leave all that other junk behind.

Rina 12-04-2012 05:50 AM

I think it has to start with the parents, not USTA or anybody else. But, of course, we can't teach parents to act differently and pull their kid out when kid is cheating, throwing fits, etc. I think this whole "it's all about me" culture has had a negative effect in the US not just in tennis, but in everyday aspects of life. The way I see it it is my duty to stop my child from throwing rocks at cars, cheating in tennis, using foul language etc. As for the coaches they need to pull the kid out as soon as they see a bad call, during practice, practice matches, tournaments, USTA allows adults to make a decision to pull their child out of a match. So, as to your question about what to do with parents behaving badly, I think the only way for something to be done is to hire many referees for all tournaments, which of course would increase the fees, so if you are happy to pay $150 instead of $65 maybe that would allow tournament directors to hire more staff and observe all the parents and competitors. My son played a match recently and on the grass by the court sat the opponents dad and kept talking to his kid, in some foreign language, my son glanced a few times at this parent, but didn't do anything about it, like get the umpire. There was no need, said my son after the match, since he won 6-0, 6-1 but what if it was a close match?

JLyon 12-04-2012 05:52 AM

it is on the parents and then on the USTA to start handing out suspension points and suspending players from competition and holding firm to the suspensions. Stinks the 5% ruin it for the 95%

Nostradamus 12-04-2012 06:25 AM

"Sore spot in junior competitive tennis in all regions is cheating, poor sportsmanship, rudeness. I've seen it in parents who coach their kids using hand signals, foreign language, whispers behind the fence.. I've seen 11 yr olds being mean and nasty to the opponent from the very moment they're called onto the court. It quickly degenerates to bad calls, in-your-face attitude, contesting every call, etc... The game no longer becomes fun, but more like a street fight against a thug".


Yea, it is sad but it is a form of intimidation to get an edge over the opponent. It literally kills sportsmanship. To some parents that means nothing and actually encourages their child to act this way. It is sad, I know.

What we could do is have at least one USTA official on site of each tournament to supervise. If not, you need to report this kind of activity immediately to local official. If all parents are on the same page and report these behavior, complaints add up quickly. and these Juniors and parents will be penalized and/ or kicked out.

tennis5 12-04-2012 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rina (Post 7045948)
I think it has to start with the parents, not USTA or anybody else. But, of course, we can't teach parents to act differently and pull their kid out when kid is cheating, throwing fits, etc. I think this whole "it's all about me" culture has had a negative effect in the US not just in tennis, but in everyday aspects of life. The way I see it it is my duty to stop my child from throwing rocks at cars, cheating in tennis, using foul language etc. As for the coaches they need to pull the kid out as soon as they see a bad call, during practice, practice matches, tournaments, USTA allows adults to make a decision to pull their child out of a match. So, as to your question about what to do with parents behaving badly, I think the only way for something to be done is to hire many referees for all tournaments, which of course would increase the fees, so if you are happy to pay $150 instead of $65 maybe that would allow tournament directors to hire more staff and observe all the parents and competitors. My son played a match recently and on the grass by the court sat the opponents dad and kept talking to his kid, in some foreign language, my son glanced a few times at this parent, but didn't do anything about it, like get the umpire. There was no need, said my son after the match, since he won 6-0, 6-1 but what if it was a close match?

All great posts here, but I thought you summed it up well.

First, I am sick of the parents talking in a foreign language.

My son had a ref on his court, a woman ref, who in my opinion, was intimidated by the opponent's father who yelled at her that she couldn't overrule calls that were not on her side
( can you believe she listened to this bully and then refused to make any calls on that side).

Anyway, the entire time the dad is hanging on the fence ( outdoor tournament) and talking to his son in a foreign language.

Why is English not allowed to be spoken at the matches,
but communication in a foreign languages are allowed to go on constantly????

Not denying that the refs are paid peanuts, so they don't want to fight with the parents....
But, some of the parents and kids are just ruining it for the majority.

And btw, I have seen USPD coaches doing this too. Refs seem to turn a blind eye to this.

Sad really, because for the younger kids (and the parents) who grew up in a culture of team sports and having 1-2 refs per game, this is one of the deciding reasons kids leave this sport for good.

Does the USTA care? I don't think so.

I am now hearing that if 2014 changes go through, there are plans to cut more tournaments in 2018.

And folks, since I was the one who brought up the 2014 changes to begin with on this board,
please realize the cuts in 2018 are for real.

The goal, per the USTA, is to have tennis as a sport that is played in your state only.
Like basketball, football, baseball is played in your state.
( traveling will be for select players at the very small USTA national tournaments and ITFS).
The goal is that when parent think about picking a sport for their kid,
they will think and consider tennis in the same manner as they would the popular sports)
The days of traveling will be like some old story that your grandparents mumble about...

ACTION STEP FOR TODAY - GET TO KNOW YOUR SECTION REP.
WATCH OTHER MATCHES, NOT YOUR KIDS, AND REPORT BAD BEHAVIOR AND CHEATING WHEN YOU SEE IT.
BELIEVE IT OR NOT, IF YOU WITNESS BAD BEHAVIOR, AND WRITE THESE KIDS UP AS A WITNESS,
IT WILL BE PUT IN THEIR RECORD.
IT WORKS, I HAVE DONE IT.
TAKES A VILLAGE.

OneTennisParent 12-04-2012 10:14 AM

I strongly agree that proper parenting would be most beneficial. However, good parenting frequently is absent. We have all seen parents that are incapable of believing that their child would do anything wrong, so there is nothing to correct. There are also plenty of parents who live vicariously through their kids and pressure them to do anything to win. I know of a parent who also runs an "academy" and teaches his students to use their body to block the opponents view of the ball when running for a lob, and call it out regardless of the truth. He says that if they can't see it, they can't argue.

I say the USTA should step in and make a policy that tracks habitual cheaters and imposes progressively more harsh punishments for repeated occurrences. Right now the slate is cleaned after every event. You can cheat your A _ _ off and not be at risk in the next event.

If they had a running chart of over-rules and during the course of a year a player would be suspended for increasingly longer periods as they accrue more "points" they would stop. Referees need only track who got overruled in an event and enter it into a back-end program for tournament directors at the conclusion of the event. A computer will issue suspensions automatically and their entries for future events will be rejected until the suspension is complete. No human interaction needed, so the ref doesn't have to deal with the antagonistic parent.

To avoid penalizing kids for true accidental "bad" calls, it could allow for 2-3 over the course of an event before it began to count against the kid. I mean really.. who has more than three overrules in an event unless they really are cheating? I think my player has been overruled twice in the past 12-months which amounts to more than 25 tournaments, or 100+ matches.

Think of it like driving. You get points attached to your driving record for various infractions, and you are penalized by higher insurance rates, suspension, and even revocation if you accrue enough points. If I could speed with no lasting ill-effects, I'd do it more often.

Kids who cheat aren't taught that there are consequences for their actions... except that they win by doing it. Give them some negative reinforcement and they will have to adjust their behavior.

woodrow1029 12-04-2012 10:19 AM

I do not agree with keeping a running total of overrules from match to match.

I do however think that the USTA rule on overrules should be the same as in college tennis. You get 2 "freebies" in a match. Each overrule after the 2nd in a particular match, the player gets a code violation.

axel89 12-04-2012 10:41 AM

when im at a tournament there's like 2 usta officals that do nothing or even call lines

JLyon 12-04-2012 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodrow1029 (Post 7046361)
I do not agree with keeping a running total of overrules from match to match.

I do however think that the USTA rule on overrules should be the same as in college tennis. You get 2 "freebies" in a match. Each overrule after the 2nd in a particular match, the player gets a code violation.

That would be great and make it easier for officials to be on the same page. I had always thought that was the rule until the last couple years and was corrected by the referee. 2 freebies and then it is unsportsmanlike.

JLyon 12-04-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axel89 (Post 7046396)
when im at a tournament there's like 2 usta officals that do nothing or even call lines

The officials are not there to call lines unless they are in a chair. They are roving to make sure matches are progressing in a timely manner and to come onto court as needed.
As for your comment, I would assume these officials could be the referee and deputy referee who have more important things to do than walking around calling lines,such as assisting with rules questions, draws questions, etc....

SoCal10s 12-04-2012 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodrow1029 (Post 7046361)
I do not agree with keeping a running total of overrules from match to match.

I do however think that the USTA rule on overrules should be the same as in college tennis. You get 2 "freebies" in a match. Each overrule after the 2nd in a particular match, the player gets a code violation.



some upms need to get their eyes checked before they can 'overrule' but at the same time some kids just want to cheat ... a standing official at the net is not in a good position to see hardly any balls .. the close sidelines the seems to get overrule all the time,which is a bad call .. officials need to be up in an umpire seat and elevated to get a good vantage point .. test for yourself .... 'put a ball about a 1/8-1/4 in out and go stand by the net post at the near sidelines(forget about the far sidelines)to me those balls looks in ...

axel89 12-04-2012 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLyon (Post 7046488)
The officials are not there to call lines unless they are in a chair. They are roving to make sure matches are progressing in a timely manner and to come onto court as needed.
As for your comment, I would assume these officials could be the referee and deputy referee who have more important things to do than walking around calling lines,such as assisting with rules questions, draws questions, etc....

oh okay but the other day im in a 10 point tiebreak the other guy clearly calls a ball out when it was in and the usta offical is like that was out

woodrow1029 12-04-2012 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCal10s (Post 7046508)
test for yourself

Lol. I think it's been pretty clear that I have "tested for myself".

NLBwell 12-04-2012 11:40 AM

Move overseers - umpires, linesmen, etc. to catch cheating. Ability to view a match without the players knowledge (so they don't just quit cheating during the moments when the official is actually standing on the court). More severe penalties for those caught cheating.
This would work - no idea how you would implement it.

woodrow1029 12-04-2012 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axel89 (Post 7046510)
oh okay but the other day im in a 10 point tiebreak the other guy clearly calls a ball out when it was in and the usta offical is like that was out

Well, that either means that it was out, or that the player and the official both saw it out. To overrule, it is supposed to be a "clear mistake". Just because you see a ball in from the other side of the net, doesn't mean that the opponent definitely made a clear mistake.

tennis5 12-04-2012 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneTennisParent (Post 7046345)
I strongly agree that proper parenting would be most beneficial. However, good parenting frequently is absent. We have all seen parents that are incapable of believing that their child would do anything wrong, so there is nothing to correct. There are also plenty of parents who live vicariously through their kids and pressure them to do anything to win. I know of a parent who also runs an "academy" and teaches his students to use their body to block the opponents view of the ball when running for a lob, and call it out regardless of the truth. He says that if they can't see it, they can't argue.

I say the USTA should step in and make a policy that tracks habitual cheaters and imposes progressively more harsh punishments for repeated occurrences. Right now the slate is cleaned after every event. You can cheat your A _ _ off and not be at risk in the next event.

If they had a running chart of over-rules and during the course of a year a player would be suspended for increasingly longer periods as they accrue more "points" they would stop. Referees need only track who got overruled in an event and enter it into a back-end program for tournament directors at the conclusion of the event. A computer will issue suspensions automatically and their entries for future events will be rejected until the suspension is complete. No human interaction needed, so the ref doesn't have to deal with the antagonistic parent.

To avoid penalizing kids for true accidental "bad" calls, it could allow for 2-3 over the course of an event before it began to count against the kid. I mean really.. who has more than three overrules in an event unless they really are cheating? I think my player has been overruled twice in the past 12-months which amounts to more than 25 tournaments, or 100+ matches.

Think of it like driving. You get points attached to your driving record for various infractions, and you are penalized by higher insurance rates, suspension, and even revocation if you accrue enough points. If I could speed with no lasting ill-effects, I'd do it more often.

Kids who cheat aren't taught that there are consequences for their actions... except that they win by doing it. Give them some negative reinforcement and they will have to adjust their behavior.


Wow, this is really good and aims exactly at the problem.

There are no LONG TERM consequences, besides a bad reputation, for cheating.

One junior who came back after a suspension, laughed about it...... He called it a vacation.

What if after 3 suspensions, player was done with tennis ( 3 strikes you are out).

DO YOU THINK WE WOULD BE HAVING THIS BLOG IF YOU WERE OUT OF TENNIS AFTER 3 SUSPENSIONS?

Lansdorp said, "Since most tournaments are sponsored by the USTA,
it becomes the responsibility of the USTA to control the environment of competition."
http://www.tennisnews.com/exclusive.php?pID=26799

andfor 12-04-2012 01:33 PM

^^^^Have heard of older and or better players getting USTA suspensions and just playing ITF as an alternative. Not saying it's right, it would be nice if the ITF had a rule that says if a player is suspended by any nationally recognized governing tennis body, they would not be eligible for ITF until the suspension is served. My understanding is that's not the case today.

woodrow1029 12-04-2012 01:36 PM

The ITF can't even get their rules in line with the ATP and WTA in the pro-tennis divisions. No way could they ever do this with all nationally recognized governing tennis bodies. :-)

andfor 12-04-2012 02:14 PM

We all talk alot about the way we think things should be. Often many have put forth lots great ideas here. Sadly, most all of them will sit here on this server in cyberspace, nothing ever really done.

coaching32yrs 12-04-2012 02:16 PM

The problem of cheating is not resticted to tennis. You cannot separate tennis from the real world. Cheating by young people has become epidemic. I have heard lectures by the president of UVA and read articles on this topic. Sure there was cheating when we grew up but nothing like today.
A high percentage of the very top students cheat in school. The school pressures on kids are the same as the tennis pressures. Over involved parents helicoptering their kids putting tremendous pressure on them to succeed at all costs. Judging them by somewhat meaningless standards, what colleges did you get in, where did you finish in sectionals. If you were to tell a parent that their kid cheats in school or cheats in tennis the reaction is likely to be the same. They would get mad at the messenger and not talk to you again- and say nothing to their precocious child. That is today's reality. I don't see a way of changing it. Truth is that it is better for the development of the youngster to teach honesty, fairness, and sportsmanship- even when it costs you a grade or a few matches.


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