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-   -   'Waiter's tray' - Definition? What is the arm position? (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=449467)

Chas Tennis 12-31-2012 03:40 AM

'Waiter's Tray Error'- Definition? What is the arm position?
 
Is there an internet definition of the 'Waiter's Tray Error'(WTE) on the serve that matches most TW forum usage of this term?

Website description
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php

The 'Waiter's Tray' Error involves not having the desired 'edge on' racket orientation at some point in the serving sequence. At which point?

The effective 'edge on' racket orientation allows the arm-wrist-racket face to freely rotate as it approaches impact.

'Edge-On' racket face when arm becomes straight. One frame later at 240 fps the racket face has turned noticeably toward the ball impact orientation. Very rapid.

I have assumed that the 'Waiter's Tray Error' applies also just after the arm becomes straight - in final position for the internal shoulder rotation and wrist joint motions that take the racket from about 90 to the arm to the beta angle at impact (20-35?) and provide 90%? of racket face velocity. With this view the WTE is transitory, dynamic because the elbow has just rapidly extended and other body joints are also moving. The desired 'edge on' or WTE probably only last a short time. But with WTE the racket really does not turn as rapidly as it does with the 'edge on' orientation. Does WTE also occur when the arm becomes straight?

Earlier in the service motion the racket face might be facing up in a similar way to WTE and that is OK, I guess?

These issues probably involve the sequence of supination and pronation as well as other joint motions. ??

Speculating - Maybe the 'Waiter Tray Error' occurs because the server has a misconception and believes that he has to swat-swing at the ball instead of using axial rotation of the arm. ? I had that misconception until last year too but have never had much tendency to do the WTE.

dominikk1985 12-31-2012 04:55 AM

Isn't that the "house wife serve" (grip it like a frying pan and push it over)?

rkelley 12-31-2012 07:37 AM

Waiter's tray refers to a racquet position during the serve where the face is parallel to the ground and the racquet is pointing backwards at the beginning of the forward swing. The racquet could act as a "waiter's tray" holding food and drinks. The racquet face sweeps up 90 to impact.

You usually get this position by using an E. fh grip on the serve. The serves can be quite fast, well into the 100 mph range, but they'll rarely go in at that speed because this type of serve produces no spin on the ball. The window between getting it over the net and hitting long is almost zero. The waiter's tray also telegraphs the direction of the serve so the receiver can start moving to where the serve is going before the ball is even struck (10s of milliseconds, but at +100 mph that much time counts).

Also, since this type of swing can't produce much spin, there person likely has no second serve to speak of, so they have to bunt it over.

slowfox 12-31-2012 07:37 AM

I always figured it was simply because people were not using the continental grip.

luvforty 12-31-2012 07:51 AM

yeah the housewife serve is the most common waiter tray.. but recent thread from JackB also shows that a conti grip with improper racket drop can also cause the tray.

user92626 12-31-2012 09:31 AM

Questions for all you guys..
What image or concept do you imagine for your racket to contact the ball?

I mean..is it that for direction: the racket goes from back fence to the general direction of where you want to ball the land? Or from back/left to forward/right?

Visualize the racket face must be squarely open at contact point?

Hit the ball (clock face) from 7 to 1?

Intent to align body, shoulder in a certain way?

Or what?

luvforty 12-31-2012 10:01 AM

momentum rarely goes towards the target.... depends on what you wonna do.

my 1st serve is a hard slice, racket path goes about 30-45 degrees from the target line.... 2nd serve has more spin, racket goes 50-80 degrees from the target line.

SystemicAnomaly 01-01-2013 03:21 AM

I've seen the waiter's tray position (first) manifested at different phases of the service motion for different servers. Some players will exhibit the waiter's tray at the "trophy" phase of their motion; while others will have something resembling a somewhat conventional trophy phase/position, but then improperly drop the racket to a waiter's tray position. Both of these will often be a result of a lack of proper supination of the forearm. An improper extension of the wrist (or an improperly timed wrist c0ck) can also be part of the problem.


A third possibility for a waiter's tray error can happen some time after the racket head drop. In some cases, the forearm may have been supinated earlier in the motion but then is pronated too early resulting in a waiter's tray at the "big L" phase (where the arm has become full extended but the racket is still more-or-less parallel to the ground). There are also some players who exhibit a waiter's tray but never get to the "big L" because they never straighten then arm on the upward swing. Other aberrant serve motions (in addition to the ones I've mentioned here) may also result in a waiter's tray error.

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/waiter_student.php
.

Chas Tennis 01-01-2013 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by user92626 (Post 7089038)
Questions for all you guys..
What image or concept do you imagine for your racket to contact the ball?

I mean..is it that for direction: the racket goes from back fence to the general direction of where you want to ball the land? Or from back/left to forward/right?

Visualize the racket face must be squarely open at contact point?

Hit the ball (clock face) from 7 to 1?

Intent to align body, shoulder in a certain way?

Or what?

Visualizing ball contact -

Experiment - I have found just using my hand and no racket that if I visualize the impact orientation that I want and simulate a service/similar motion to impact, the hand can reproducibly impact at the desired angle after just a few practice tries. For example, stand and imagine that you are to hit a ball and want to hit the back square on or at some other angle. You then practice and in a few tries the amazing system seems to be doing it very accurately. The natural visualization system is very capable. However, I'm not doing the full and free rotation with a racket as on the serve.

Knowing exactly where I want to impact with the racket for a serve is much more difficult. I don't trust my interpretation of the simple descriptions, for example, the '1 to 7' o'clock' path (kick serve). The stroke for the kick serve seems much more complicated than the '1 to 7' or similar description.

Believe this to be a kick serve.
https://vimeo.com/40449544

How do I visualize this motion as I serve looking up at some angle? I've decided not to practice until I better understand. The face of the racket is really changing and how the server would perceive the racket face orientation in not clear. Is it squarely across the back of the ball or hitting the top half of the ball due to path and racket face rotation? Does Stosur see her racket face as traveling 1 to 7?

This motion seems simpler and the racket vertical orientation at impact is shown. Serve type unknown.
https://vimeo.com/53440915

However, video camera views from the side or behind always show only two dimensions and never the direction toward or away from the camera. It is easy to misinterpret 3D object locations using 2D video.

To complicate things, I'm not sure that the pros look at the ball at impact for the serve. If I'm looking at the ball at impact have I screwed up my body position or motion? See videos above at impact. See Reply #9.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=442804

In serving during a match I abbreviate or leave out components of the service motion. Very often I'm not using the full edge-on racket orientation. I sometimes notice and change it and see an immediate pace increase on the serve.

The comments have been very helpful. The rkelley and SystemicAnomaly comments bring home the point that the WTE can precede the straight arm step.

I have not had a mental picture of supination during the serve or noticed it very much in videos. Maybe I've had more WTE than I thought in most of my serves and early supination might play a part. ?

LeeD 01-01-2013 07:10 AM

Waiter's tray is a wrist and hand position noted at the trophy position. What happens afterwards becomes a SORT of waiter's tray by the loop of the swing.
If you start in a waiter's tray, you can be more consistent, but you lose out on the loop of the racket for power and rackethead speed.
Waiter's tray can be seen with any grip.

JackB1 01-01-2013 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7088883)
yeah the housewife serve is the most common waiter tray.. but recent thread from JackB also shows that a conti grip with improper racket drop can also cause the tray.

thanks for the credits :-)

JackB1 01-01-2013 02:56 PM

so here is the question....at what point SHOULD the racquet and palm MOMENTARILY point to the sky? Because it HAS to at some point in the serve as you start the forward part of the swing.

5263 01-01-2013 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 7091175)
so here is the question....at what point SHOULD the racquet and palm MOMENTARILY point to the sky? Because it HAS to at some point in the serve as you start the forward part of the swing.

No...it comes in on edge like a hatchet, then irs pronates the racket head to
accel it and face it to the ball.

JackB1 01-01-2013 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5263 (Post 7091185)
No...it comes in on edge like a hatchet, then irs pronates the racket head to
accel it and face it to the ball.

watch this video referenced above
http://vimeo.com/53440915

I believe its Raonic. Freeze it at .04 and you see his palm facing the sky.

5263 01-01-2013 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 7091269)
watch this video referenced above
http://vimeo.com/53440915

I believe its Raonic. Freeze it at .04 and you see his palm facing the sky.

I see your point, but the key is that position is not necessary, and what you see at
.05, with it coming on edge is.

luvforty 01-01-2013 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 7091269)
watch this video referenced above
http://vimeo.com/53440915

I believe its Raonic. Freeze it at .04 and you see his palm facing the sky.

both ways are possible...

at the trophy position, if the racket faces the right fence, then it will face the sky momentarily during the transition into the back scratch racket drop.

at the trophy position, if the racket faces the opponent, then it doesn't need to see the sky at all (Edberg is one example)

JackB1 01-01-2013 03:55 PM

http://m221.photobucket.com/albumvie...C96B7.jpg.html




JackB1 01-01-2013 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luvforty (Post 7091288)
both ways are possible...

at the trophy position, if the racket faces the right fence, then it will face the sky momentarily during the transition into the back scratch racket drop.

at the trophy position, if the racket faces the opponent, then it doesn't need to see the sky at all (Edberg is one example)

this was exactly my point

5263 01-01-2013 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1 (Post 7091309)
this was exactly my point

Really?
Racket may or may not ever point to the sky during transition, but on your
serve the problem is you move the racket face towards the contact in that
inefficient position.

luvforty 01-01-2013 04:12 PM

Jack - 5263 is right... after the racket drop, the face doesnt see the sky during the swing up to the ball.


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