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OneTennisParent 01-02-2013 11:17 AM

Video redux
 
The last thread on this topic was co-opted by a revisit of some previous inappropriate discussion. I would like to bring it back to the question at hand i.e. how to get the USTA to integrate language into the CODE, that will allow well-meaning participants to video their own player.

I understand the worry about predators, and it's valid. However, simply stating that a parent, or coach may video their own player's match would allow us to improve our players, and maybe even acquire some keepsakes of our kids for our senior years. It does not open the door to allowing *******s to do what they want.

I video every match I am allowed, but only keep the ones that have some value. If my daughter plays exceptionally well, or poorly, I will have her review it. The really good performances I keep, and the poor ones she watches herself to analyze what went wrong. It is also nice to be able to hand her coach a disk of the match when he's not there. I can't afford to bring him along, so this fills in that gap.

Every other sport allows videotaping of the event, and no objection is given even cursory thought. If a parent of a football, or soccer player objected to their child being videotaped, could you imagine all video recording being stopped? Would they make a PA announcement to everyone in attendance telling them to put away their cameras and cell phones? Of course not. The only issue is when video is disseminated. When used for personal analysis, there is no right to privacy, and in an organized sporting event there is no expectation of privacy for participants.

If the question is regarding acquisition of the image of a player without the parent's consent, it's already addressed as well. There is no law on the books to prevent video of minors unless you identify them, use it to defame, or otherwise denigrate the child. I would point to the practice of taking snapshots. Pictures taken at group events, for personal use, are considered Public Domain, and no one in the background has any say over their acquisition. My intent is to videotape my daughter, not the opponent. That her opponent is in the frame is incidental, and not grounds for refusing me the right to videotape the match.

There are already laws on the books to prevent inappropriate use of any images. If someone steps outside those bounds, there are legal ramifications.

I again point to the USTA's edict that no one may play a National Championship unless they sign away all their image rights to the USTA and the facility. The legal framework already exists. Simply put a paragraph on the sign-up page stating that parents and coaches may videotape their own player's match, and it's done. If you don't want to participate in this voluntary event, you don't have to.

Again I implore the readers of this board to seek out a lawyer, friendly to tennis, who will file a complaint with the USTA on our behalf. All it would take is the threat of a first amendment violation suit, and they will cave. They fear the threat of the complainers, not those of us who just want what's best for our players.

And yes, I have already asked all my lawyer friends. They don't have experience in that area of law, and I can't expect them to put in the time, for free, to learn it. Ideally it will be a lawyer who has filed similar suits, and has a template to allow a fill-in-the-blanks filing.

tennis5 01-02-2013 11:47 AM

My understanding is that the USTA is allowed to video tape, but the parents may not....

And while I disagree with almost everything about the USTA,
the rationale is that most parents don't want other folks videotaping their kids for internet security reasons.

You state - "My intent is to videotape my daughter, not the opponent."

Ok, you are a normal person, but I have been to events ( not tennis) and seen dads videotaping other young teenage girls and I don't think it was to analyze the competition....

(At this point, you can take a face of a young junior and and put it on the body of another person, and then send it around the globe.....)

So, just another parent's thoughts for you to consider and mine are not as tennis related as yours,
I understand, but there is another side to the issue.

gplracer 01-02-2013 12:38 PM

I think part of my issue with this is that the USTA allows companies to set up video recording services at the courts. I know some of these people post on there and they are good honest people. I have nothing against them and I wish the best, but you do realize that once that video gets in the hands of the parent they can do whatever they want with it just as if they recorded it themselves. Based on that I should be able to do it too. I understand that there can be issues with recording kids which makes this a hot topic. Almost everyone out there has a video camera on their phone so it is hard to police.

Video taping is happening all around us. If I film my child at a road race. Do I have to have permission of all the people there? No. If ESPN films a tennis match can they put the camera on the people in the audience and then broadcast it to the world without the permission of those being video taped? Yes they can. Where does the permission to video tape start and end? I do not think that has been decided yet.

I have mixed feelings about all of this.

Bowtiesarecool 01-02-2013 01:01 PM

Ask a professional photographer and he will tell you. In a nutshell, anyone has the right to photograph or videotape another person in public. If you want to sell, or use those images to promote your business, the people in the photos need to sign a release or you can be sued later on.

Chemist 01-02-2013 05:32 PM

Video taping was allowed in Super Nationals. A parent taped the match between his and my sons at the winter national. I asked him if I could get a copy of the tape and I was so pleased that he emailed me a link to Youtube. I just bought a set of VolleyCam that can be hung on the fence or curtains. A tournament director in our sectional event did not allow me do so. But I have seen taping from the upstairs. I did once myself using my cell phone to capture bad line calls. The parent complained about taping after the match. The tournament director requested that I promise not to post it on any social media.

Chemist 01-02-2013 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis5 (Post 7093002)
seen dads videotaping other young teenage girls and I don't think it was to analyze the competition....

Our tennis parents like to talk about one tennis dad who likes to take pictures of girls using his expensive camera with a long zoom lens.

Videotaping a tennis match is different.

OneTennisParent 01-03-2013 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemist (Post 7093717)
Video taping was allowed in Super Nationals. A parent taped the match between his and my sons at the winter national. I asked him if I could get a copy of the tape and I was so pleased that he emailed me a link to Youtube. I just bought a set of VolleyCam that can be hung on the fence or curtains. A tournament director in our sectional event did not allow me do so. But I have seen taping from the upstairs. I did once myself using my cell phone to capture bad line calls. The parent complained about taping after the match. The tournament director requested that I promise not to post it on any social media.

I was just at the Winter Nationals, and a ref told me I could not tape unless I first secured permission from the opponent, her parents, and the facility. Match was starting so this was not remotely possible. I sought out the head ref who said "You can hang your camera, but must take it down if anyone objects." which is the rule with which I am familiar. I also asked if there is any written policy from the USTA, and he said no. So... if the USTA hasn't put anything in the code, what exactly are the refs enforcing? I tried this rationale in the past, and was instantly threatened with a code violation against my player if I didn't immediately comply with the refs arbitrary ruling.

BowTiesAreCool is absolutely correct. Images (still or video) for private use, are not protected. The laws apply to use for defamatory purposes or profit. The USTA has no right to force you to allow them to use your image, but preclude you from doing the same.

Also, restricting the video to fence mounted devices would further reduce predators. There is nothing sexy about a full court view from 20-60 feet away. The closer player even has his/her back to you 99% of the time. If I didn't already know the players involved, I couldn't pick them out of a lineup.

OneTennisParent 01-03-2013 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tennis5 (Post 7093002)
My understanding is that the USTA is allowed to video tape, but the parents may not....

And while I disagree with almost everything about the USTA,
the rationale is that most parents don't want other folks videotaping their kids for internet security reasons.

You state - "My intent is to videotape my daughter, not the opponent."

Ok, you are a normal person, but I have been to events ( not tennis) and seen dads videotaping other young teenage girls and I don't think it was to analyze the competition....

(At this point, you can take a face of a young junior and and put it on the body of another person, and then send it around the globe.....)

So, just another parent's thoughts for you to consider and mine are not as tennis related as yours,
I understand, but there is another side to the issue.

I do understand, and always defer to the opponent's parent if they request that I not video. My gripe is with the USTA for not making it clear, and also for denying ALL objections to their own acquisition of images at nationals. You sign your rights away, or don't play.

There have also already been court cases brought against convicted child molesters who take pictures of children with long lens cameras. As long as there is no concurrent violation such as a distance restriction, the predator always wins. As grotesque as that is, there is no law preventing video of anyone as long as it's for personal use.

If the law has already been established, why is the USTA obviating it - except in their own interests? Oh yeah... they make money on those video rights that they force you to waive. You are just a paying member of their organization. Why should they allow you any latitude?

Limiting the permission to video to the player's parent or coach would still allow anyone to question outsiders who seem overly interested. I am not trying to throw the doors open to anyone, just those with a vested interest in the match being played. I invest significant resources to advance my player to her best potential. This is a valuable tool in that process.

Number1Coach 01-03-2013 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneTennisParent (Post 7094875)
I do understand, and always defer to the opponent's parent if they request that I not video. My gripe is with the USTA for not making it clear, and also for denying ALL objections to their own acquisition of images at nationals. You sign your rights away, or don't play.

There have also already been court cases brought against convicted child molesters who take pictures of children with long lens cameras. As long as there is no concurrent violation such as a distance restriction, the predator always wins. As grotesque as that is, there is no law preventing video of anyone as long as it's for personal use.

If the law has already been established, why is the USTA obviating it - except in their own interests? Oh yeah... they make money on those video rights that they force you to waive. You are just a paying member of their organization. Why should they allow you any latitude?

Limiting the permission to video to the player's parent or coach would still allow anyone to question outsiders who seem overly interested. I am not trying to throw the doors open to anyone, just those with a vested interest in the match being played. I invest significant resources to advance my player to her best potential. This is a valuable tool in that process.

like I said already on this subject , video your kids match and if the other parent does not like it 'OH well" tell them to get lost or pull their kid from the match , as for a tournament director have him call the police and they will be on your side "Its not illegal" so stand your ground and improve your player

gplracer 01-03-2013 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number1Coach (Post 7094896)
like I said already on this subject , video your kids match and if the other parent does not like it 'OH well" tell them to get lost or pull their kid from the match , as for a tournament director have him call the police and they will be on your side "Its not illegal" so stand your ground and improve your player

It is also not illegal for them to default your child from the match. They can do that and there is nothing the police can do about it. You could file a grievance but guess what? The match is still over. There needs to be a set decision made on this topic by the USTA. I fear it will be them saying it is their event and no video taping is allowed.

Chemist 01-03-2013 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneTennisParent (Post 7094849)
I was just at the Winter Nationals, and a ref told me I could not tape unless I first secured permission from the opponent, her parents, and the facility. Match was starting so this was not remotely possible. I sought out the head ref who said "You can hang your camera, but must take it down if anyone objects." which is the rule with which I am familiar. I also asked if there is any written policy from the USTA, and he said no. So... if the USTA hasn't put anything in the code, what exactly are the refs enforcing? I tried this rationale in the past, and was instantly threatened with a code violation against my player if I didn't immediately comply with the refs arbitrary ruling.

BowTiesAreCool is absolutely correct. Images (still or video) for private use, are not protected. The laws apply to use for defamatory purposes or profit. The USTA has no right to force you to allow them to use your image, but preclude you from doing the same.

Also, restricting the video to fence mounted devices would further reduce predators. There is nothing sexy about a full court view from 20-60 feet away. The closer player even has his/her back to you 99% of the time. If I didn't already know the players involved, I couldn't pick them out of a lineup.

Maybe its girls' event that ref was enforcing own tournament rules. The father of my son's opponent never asked me for permission to tape the match. Apparently videotaping boys' matches at the supernationals is ok. Luckily Jerry Sandusky has not been accused for hurting tennis players.

tball2day 01-03-2013 10:26 AM

There are some players that do not like to be videotaped, this isn't just a parental decision.

While OP only wants to tape his daughter, I know many people use that cover to tape opponent in actuality.

Videotaping may be helpful but parents that do it can be annoying and a huge distraction.

Frankly, when your kid is a really good player, it is surprising how many parents decide that is the match to tape.

OneTennisParent 01-03-2013 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tball2day (Post 7095213)
There are some players that do not like to be videotaped, this isn't just a parental decision.

While OP only wants to tape his daughter, I know many people use that cover to tape opponent in actuality.

Videotaping may be helpful but parents that do it can be annoying and a huge distraction.

Frankly, when your kid is a really good player, it is surprising how many parents decide that is the match to tape.

Not being sarcastic, but I don't understand what could be annoying or distracting. I have a mount that hangs on the back fence. Takes 30-sec to put up prior to warm-up, and I walk away. The entire thing is matte black so there are no distracting colors or reflections, and it doesn't move. I don't stand on the sideline panning back and forth with a handheld. After the match, I take it down and move on.

I don't know many high-level players that aren't videotaped to study technique anyway, so it wouldn't be new to them.

Re using the video to gain advantage over an opponent; none of the juniors I know are finished products. If you spend time analyzing opponents, you waste time needed to develop you own player. Also, I am already watching and making notes while I chart the match. If I can't find a hole in the opponent while watching, I am not going to have an epiphany while reviewing the video.

OneTennisParent 01-03-2013 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chemist (Post 7095160)
Maybe its girls' event that ref was enforcing own tournament rules. The father of my son's opponent never asked me for permission to tape the match. Apparently videotaping boys' matches at the supernationals is ok. Luckily Jerry Sandusky has not been accused for hurting tennis players.

Maybe you already had the camera in position. I was just hanging mine when the ref walked by and told me to take it down. If it's already up, they would have to notice it and they are not always the most observant of people.

OneTennisParent 01-03-2013 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gplracer (Post 7094989)
It is also not illegal for them to default your child from the match. They can do that and there is nothing the police can do about it. You could file a grievance but guess what? The match is still over. There needs to be a set decision made on this topic by the USTA. I fear it will be them saying it is their event and no video taping is allowed.

Too true. There are some refs that seem to get off on the power they wield. I had one point directly at me and say "code!" because I had the audacity to say "come on" when my player was seated on a changeover. I know that cheer-leading is allowed, and doing it on a changeover is the least disrupting time, but if I had argued he would have taken it out on my player.

That the ref is incorrect is immaterial. They win. Until the USTA incorporates something into the Code, the refs have lots of latitude and you have none. I too am leery of pushing the USTA farther than I have already, as deferring to the negative is easier for them. That's why I keep asking for a lawyer who can file a suit alleging violation of our First Amendment rights. Then they would have to start spending money to defend the case, or allow video. They love money too much to take it to court.

tball2day 01-03-2013 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneTennisParent (Post 7095395)
Not being sarcastic, but I don't understand what could be annoying or distracting. I have a mount that hangs on the back fence. Takes 30-sec to put up prior to warm-up, and I walk away. The entire thing is matte black so there are no distracting colors or reflections, and it doesn't move. I don't stand on the sideline panning back and forth with a handheld. After the match, I take it down and move on.

I don't know many high-level players that aren't videotaped to study technique anyway, so it wouldn't be new to them.

Re using the video to gain advantage over an opponent; none of the juniors I know are finished products. If you spend time analyzing opponents, you waste time needed to develop you own player. Also, I am already watching and making notes while I chart the match. If I can't find a hole in the opponent while watching, I am not going to have an epiphany while reviewing the video.

You are asking for people to endorse your stand but you are not the only person out there videotaping. Some are distracting, panning back and forth - not everyone is Mr. Perfect Videographer. Per your second point, yes it wouldn't be new to high level players but it doesn't mean it's right. You are only seeing this from one side. Not everyone wants their kid videotaped, it's that simple. Not every kid wants a camera on them.

I understand video can be helpful/useful all that, but don't see the need to approve widespread videotaping. Besides, it's not going to make or break a player. There's just something different with the one on one nature of tennis. I just find it creepy when some person I don't know has so much footage of my kid.

Alohajrtennis 01-03-2013 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneTennisParent (Post 7095434)
That's why I keep asking for a lawyer who can file a suit alleging violation of our First Amendment rights. Then they would have to start spending money to defend the case, or allow video. They love money too much to take it to court.

As much as I empathize with you, and although I am not lawyer, I don't see how this is a first amendment case. It's a USTA rule, not law passed by the government. I think they have as much might to say you cannot videotape as to say you cannot coach your kid or that you only get two serves. As long as they are not violating anyone civil rights then I think they can ban videoing, by parents or anyone affiliated with the player.

That said, I think it's dumb. Every other sport has sidelines full of parents video taping every game. And if the event is held on public courts, then any random stranger, including the aforementioned pervs, CAN videotape the kids, and there is nothing they can do to stop them. So really, if the true concern is stopping pervs, than this rule stops everybody but the pervs.

Alohajrtennis 01-03-2013 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tball2day (Post 7095213)
There are some players that do not like to be videotaped, this isn't just a parental decision.

While OP only wants to tape his daughter, I know many people use that cover to tape opponent in actuality.

Videotaping may be helpful but parents that do it can be annoying and a huge distraction.

Frankly, when your kid is a really good player, it is surprising how many parents decide that is the match to tape.

I think it's more that people want to videotape their player playing a good player as there is more to learn. Watching videotape of your player beating an opponent 0,0 might be fun, but there's not too much to learn from it. Watching the videotape of you player lose to a better player definitely yields more insight onto your own player.

I suspect there are players and parents in all sports who don't appreciate being recorded; however, tennis appears to be unique in taking a stand against it, at least in some sections or locales. Which I think is a shame because it is probably the sport that has the most to gain from it, for several reasons, including in that it is also unique in its prohibition against coaching and one of the few sports where kids "officiate" there own matches.

In the first regard, having videotape is much better then the coach saying "remember when it was 30-0 in third game of the first set and you.." after the match.

With regards to cheating, videos cameras can serve as a deterrent. In fact, each section should have a supply of a couple dozen Bloggie or flip video cameras and mounts and should have two cameras mounted, one each side, for each round of sixteen match and above at a L3-L5 tournaments.

HIGH-TECH TENNIS 01-04-2013 04:16 AM

AMEN. Alohajrtennis is exactly right.

OneTennisParent 01-04-2013 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tball2day (Post 7096434)
You are asking for people to endorse your stand but you are not the only person out there videotaping. Some are distracting, panning back and forth - not everyone is Mr. Perfect Videographer. Per your second point, yes it wouldn't be new to high level players but it doesn't mean it's right. You are only seeing this from one side. Not everyone wants their kid videotaped, it's that simple. Not every kid wants a camera on them.

I understand video can be helpful/useful all that, but don't see the need to approve widespread videotaping. Besides, it's not going to make or break a player. There's just something different with the one on one nature of tennis. I just find it creepy when some person I don't know has so much footage of my kid.

You must not have read my reply to Tennis5. I always defer to the request of the parent or player. I just don't want to have to chase everyone down and seek permission ahead of time. People are much more likely to refuse if asked. If you just hang it and walk away, nobody says anything. I have been asked maybe 5 times not to tape when I just hang it up.

I'll even concede your point that video won't make or break a player, but it undeniably is beneficial. Isn't that the USTA's charter... to improve tennis?

Also, the parent that with the handheld that pans back and forth is protected under USTA pseudo regulations. Every ref will state that you can video your own player if you don't include the opponent. If you say you are not taping the opponent, you do what you want. These videographers can be annoying... sometimes intentionally, but the USTA won't do anything. Wouldn't you rather it be a static fence mounted unit?


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