Talk Tennis

Talk Tennis (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php)
-   Former Pro Player Talk (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Stats for 1987 French Open Final(Lendl-Wilander) (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=450131)

Moose Malloy 01-07-2013 05:51 AM

Stats for 1987 French Open Final(Lendl-Wilander)
 
Lendl d Wilander 75, 62, 36, 76(3)

my stats
Lendl served at 51%(65 of 128 )
He won 51 of 65 pts on 1st serve(78%)
and 32 of 63 on 2nd(51%)
6 aces, 1 df
drew 18 return errors(1 was a 2nd serve)
of the return errors Wilander made 10 were fh, 8 were bh
6-9 on break points(Wilander made 1st serves on 3 of them)

Wilander served at 55%(74 of 135)
He won 48 of 74 pts on 1st serve(65%)
and 32 of 61 on 2nd(52%)
3 aces, 3 df'd
drew 26 return errors(9 were 2nd serves)
of the return errors Lendl made 17 were fh, 9 were bh
4-10 on break points(Lendl made 1st serves on 4 of them)

Lendl had 59 non service winners: 23 fh, 10 bh, 11 fhv, 8 bhv, 7 ov
Wilander had 29: 4 fh, 9 bh, 2 fhv, 11 bhv, 3 ov

net stats
Lendl 45-62(73%)
Wilander 40-62(65%)

despite the incredibly long and grueling rallies in this match(1st set had several of 50 shots or more according to commentators) I think the match was ultimately decided by net approaches. The winner of every set was the player who came to net more in that set. Lendl's net approaches dropped way down in the 3rd set, which he lost. He got them back up in the 4th. The tiebreak was an impressive way to end it, he started off with winners on 3 of the first 4 points to go up 4-0 & hit a great bh pass to go up 5-2.

NBC's stats after 2 sets
Lendl 39 winners, 24 unforced errors
Wilander 13 winners, 14 unforced errors

Bud Collins said that Lendl & Nystrom had a 100 ball rally earlier in the tournament

pc1 01-07-2013 06:55 AM

Great information on that 1987 French Open Moose. I was in Paris during that tournament and was amazed that they had the tournament on television at the Metro stops.

McEnroeisanartist 01-07-2013 12:59 PM

Moose, I believe this match was 4 hours and 30 minutes? Probably, the second longest French Open final of all time, after the 1982 final - Wilander def. Vilas (4 hours and 42 minutes). Any idea how long Wilander and Lendl's 1985 French Open final was?

Mustard 01-07-2013 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McEnroeisanartist (Post 7103887)
Moose, I believe this match was 4 hours and 30 minutes? Probably, the second longest French Open final of all time, after the 1982 final - Wilander def. Vilas (4 hours and 42 minutes). Any idea how long Wilander and Lendl's 1985 French Open final was?

3 hours and 13 minutes according to the Orlando Sentinel:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-lendl-mcenroe

BTURNER 01-07-2013 03:43 PM

Lendl served at 51%(65 of 128 )
He won 51 of 65 pts on 1st serve(78%)
and 32 of 63 on 2nd(51%)
6 aces, 1 df

Wilander served at 55%(74 of 135)
He won 48 of 74 pts on 1st serve(65%)
and 32 of 61 on 2nd(52%)
3 aces, 3 df'd


I have this match on DVD. I use it when my sleep aid pills are out.
Moose, it looks to me that Lendl's first serve was a real weapon, while Mat's was not. Lendl got twice the aces, with little risk of either dfs, or of Mats taking control on second serve with his return . When Lendl got his first in, he won 12% more of the points than Mats did on his first serve.

While Wilander got the return in play, it wasn't deep enough to keep the Czeck from gaining control with the big forehand. Wilander just did not have a big weapon like that. He had more pressure on himself earlier in the rallies.

krosero 01-07-2013 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McEnroeisanartist (Post 7103887)
Moose, I believe this match was 4 hours and 30 minutes? Probably, the second longest French Open final of all time, after the 1982 final - Wilander def. Vilas (4 hours and 42 minutes). Any idea how long Wilander and Lendl's 1985 French Open final was?

'87 came in at 4:18.

In terms of points played there have been several longer ones.

1927 Lacoste d. Tilden - 393 points. I think this must be the alltime record at the French because there were 61 games; von Cramm and Crawford played 56 games in 1934 (don't know the # of points), but the next longest is well back at 51 games (1984).

1984 Lendl d. McEnroe - 310 points
1989 Chang d. Edberg - 309 points
1993 Bruguera d. Courier - 299 points
1999 Agassi d. Medvedev - 296 points
2004 Gaudio d. Coria - 285 points
1991 Courier d. Agassi - 278 points
1987 Lendl d. Wilander - 263 points

Lacoste and Tilden had rallies as long as 42 shots but they only took up 3 hours and 1/2.

Pebbles10 01-07-2013 04:41 PM

Wilander played a lot better in FO 1988.

Mustard 01-07-2013 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pebbles10 (Post 7104441)
Wilander played a lot better in FO 1988.

I think his 1985 French Open was his best of all, beating both McEnroe and Lendl.

pc1 01-07-2013 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krosero (Post 7104426)
'87 came in at 4:18.

In terms of points played there have been several longer ones.

1927 Lacoste d. Tilden - 393 points. I think this must be the alltime record at the French because there were 61 games; von Cramm and Crawford played 56 games in 1934 (don't know the # of points), but the next longest is well back at 51 games (1984).

1984 Lendl d. McEnroe - 310 points
1989 Chang d. Edberg - 309 points
1993 Bruguera d. Courier - 299 points
1999 Agassi d. Medvedev - 296 points
2004 Gaudio d. Coria - 285 points
1991 Courier d. Agassi - 278 points
1987 Lendl d. Wilander - 263 points

Lacoste and Tilden had rallies as long as 42 shots but they only took up 3 hours and 1/2.

If it was only 3.5 hours in those days it would comparable to a much longer match today since they didn't have the delays they have today. Talk about a physically tough match. :shock:

Mustard 01-07-2013 07:18 PM

The 1927 French Championships final between Lacoste and Tilden was a controversial match too. Tilden seemingly hit an ace when championship point up, but it was called out and Tilden ended up losing the match. 1927 was the year when Tilden started travelling to Europe again, realising how serious a threat the Musketeers were following the 1926 US Championships, where Cochet beat Tilden in the quarter finals and Lacoste won the tournament after beating Borotra in the final.

It got even more frustrating for Tilden at 1927 Wimbledon, where he blew a 2 set and 5-1 in the third set lead against Cochet, and eventually lost.

krosero 01-08-2013 07:45 AM

Becker, after losing to Wilander in the semis, made a prediction about the final:
“If it is close all the way through, then Mats will win,” Becker said. “Ivan is not as strong mentally as Mats.”
New York Times:
Lendl recalled with relish this evening that coming into this tournament, he was not a favorite. ''They said I was not fit,'' he said, ''that I wasn't mentally tough - Mats was tougher - that I had no confidence because I hadn't won enough matches this year.''

Under those circumstances, Lendl said, ''I'm proud to have pulled through.''

It was a tough pull made tougher by the strange rhythms of play.

The first five games seemed like an extension of the warmup, with the players exchanging cautious groundstrokes in rallies that lasted as long as 80 shots. The looping strokes and total absence of aggressive play summoned memories of Wilander's first French final, in 1982, when he defeated Guillermo Vilas.

When Lendl suddenly picked up the pace going for winners from backcourt and taking the net at every opportunity, Wilander had no answer. A celebrated counterpuncher and much improved attacker, he neither counterpunched nor attacked. He had no real explanation for his malaise, only an after-the-fact appreciation that he should have acted sooner to shake it off.

For one thing, Wilander's tentative play hurt his serve. ''In your mind, if you know you're going to play from the baseline,'' he said, ''you don't concentrate on your serve. You don't put as much power in it.''

'Took It to Him'

He might have survived a lack of power if his first serve had been going in. But he was missing an unusually high percentage of first balls and Lendl began climbing all over the second one. Standing far over to play every second service return on the forehand, he hit a half-dozen of them for outright winners and as many more that set up easy volleys.

As Lendl put it, ''I just took it to him.''

Wilander had to do something, and he did. At 2-all in the third set, he began playing serve-and-volley for the first time in the match, and held that service game after several deuces. He won his next one easily, again by attacking, and his aggressiveness seemed to rob Lendl of his own.

Lendl stayed back while Wilander came in. What had been slashing winners off Lendl's racquet became setups that Wilander volleyed away. He broke for 5-3 on a point that saw him race the width of the court to retrieve an approach shot on his forehand, then pass off the ensuing volley on his backhand.

Lendl managed to fight off three break points to win the opening game of the fourth set, but when he next served, he was broken at love. Wilander was in control until the next game, when he double-faulted at deuce and Lendl blasted a weak second serve.

Then light sprinkles became real rain, and play was suspended. Play was resumed with rain still falling.

Lendl went on serve to the tiebreaker. ''I wouldn't have complained if the umpire had stopped the match before that,'' Lendl said. ''Puddles were forming behind the baselines and it was hard to get any penetration because the wet balls got heavy quickly.

''I was thinking, what should I do to take advantage of the court?'' Lendl said. ''Come in to the net? Hit behind him so maybe he'll slip?''

What Lendl did instead was to play four straight championship points: a deep approach that forced an error, two returns that zoomed past Wilander as he came in behind serve and a service winner that ricocheted off Wilander's racquet. Lendl was ahead, 4-0.

Wilander climbed back to 4-2, but even he knew it was all but hopeless. ''Tie breaks are always dangerous against Lendl,'' he said. ''He can come up with great shots and great serves.''

Lendl called this victory the toughest he has had in a Grand Slam event, more difficult even than his first French title, which he took from John McEnroe after trailing two sets to none. Asked how it felt to win this tournament after winning only one previously this year, he grinned.
Lendl's only title this year had been in Hamburg. He had taken 6 weeks off to have arthroscopic surgery on his knee, right after Miami, where he lost in 3 straight sets to Mecir. Shortly after returning to the tour he beat Mecir in 3 straight sets in the Hamburg final (he also beat Mecir in 3 straight at RG). He lost in Rome to Nystrom but beat him at RG.

Wilander came into the RG final with 17 straight wins, including titles at Monte Carlo and Rome. He had last been beaten by Mecir, twice, and badly both times: 6-1, 6-1, 6-3 in Dallas and 6-0, 6-2 in Milan.

Lendl beat 3 "hot" players at RG (Wilander, Mecir, Nystrom), so this was one of his best victories.

krosero 01-12-2013 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 7103065)
NBC's stats after 2 sets
Lendl 39 winners, 24 unforced errors
Wilander 13 winners, 14 unforced errors

Lendl has a +15 differential here which is impressive considering that it's not easy to get a positive differential on clay.

(For example Kuerten had a negative differential in the 2000 RG final; and in the 2001 final he just broke even with a differential of zero.)

Doubly impressive is that the incredibly long rallies in the first two sets -- especially the opening set -- did not end in Lendl making more unforced errors.

Moose Malloy 01-14-2013 03:12 PM

do you know the differential in the '84 final? Nadal was at +5 in last year's final.

were you able to calculate 'rally' points from my stats for this match?

kiki 01-14-2013 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustard (Post 7104638)
I think his 1985 French Open was his best of all, beating both McEnroe and Lendl.

It was great since he beat leconte,Mac and Lendl.But in 1982, his first title, he beat Lendl,Gerulaitis,Clerc and Vilas.Impressive.

krosero 01-16-2013 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 7120132)
do you know the differential in the '84 final? Nadal was at +5 in last year's final.

After three sets Lendl had 22w and 19ue. Mac had 42w, 27ue.

After four sets Lendl was at 35w, 26ue. Mac was at 56w, 42ue.

krosero 01-16-2013 10:50 AM

Rally points in '87 final
 
Only including points in which the serve was successfully put back in play:

Lendl 67% on 1st serve (28/42) and 51% on 2nd (31/61).
Wilander 52% on 1st serve (28/54) and 47% on 2nd (23/49).

krosero 01-16-2013 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 7103065)
Lendl d Wilander 75, 62, 36, 76(3)

my stats
Lendl served at 51%(65 of 128 )
Wilander served at 55%(74 of 135)

These got flipped around from the '85 final, in which Lendl served at 43% and Wilander at 76%.

In this '87 final neither player did too well making the first serve on break point, Lendl just 4 of 10, Wilander 4 of 9. But I guess that mattered more for Wilander, because Lendl was attacking his second serve on key points (though that is not apparent in the stats for 2nd serve success).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moose Malloy (Post 7103065)
Lendl had 59 non service winners: 23 fh, 10 bh, 11 fhv, 8 bhv, 7 ov
Wilander had 29: 4 fh, 9 bh, 2 fhv, 11 bhv, 3 ov

Lendl 33 winners from groundstrokes, 26 from net strokes
Wilander 13 winners from groundstrokes, 16 from net strokes

Lendl's FH looks like the decisive stroke of the match. That's a lot of FH winners, esp. with the court playing so slowly.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:29 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2006 - Tennis Warehouse