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-   -   Avoiding overturn (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=450589)

isilra 01-11-2013 08:58 AM

Avoiding overturn
 
I have an open stance, semi-western topspin forehand. when i want to hit a powerful forehand, i coil by pivoting over the right foot excessively but when i lift up and jump, i see myself turning more than 90 degrees. When i land on my left foot, it's like i'm looking the opponent over my right shoulder and he can see my back. That comes unconsciously but destroys everything.

I don't know if i should begin with limiting my uncoiling consciously or coiling weaker. You have any suggestions for me to prevent it ?

LeeD 01-11-2013 02:13 PM

If you're hitting a winner, it's fine.
If you're hitting a rallyball to your opponent's forehand, it's not good. However, if you can splitstep as the opponent hits HIS ball, you're fine.

user92626 01-11-2013 03:01 PM

Does open stance mean the line drawn between your feet is parallel to the net?

dominikk1985 01-11-2013 03:35 PM

overturn is a signal for inefficient energy transfer. energy is transfered by stopping the earlier body parts in the kinetic chain.

that means the shoulders stop when the chest faces the net which causes the arm to whip through. the top players don't rotate with their shot but rotate early and delay their very fast arm strike till the very end.

Turn-Stop-Whip (but in one fluid motion which is the hard part:)).

watch how early he rotates and how quiet his shoulders are at release
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFh2JqrOsak

isilra 01-11-2013 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7113533)
overturn is a signal for inefficient energy transfer. energy is transfered by stopping the earlier body parts in the kinetic chain.

that means the shoulders stop when the chest faces the net which causes the arm to whip through. the top players don't rotate with their shot but rotate early and delay their very fast arm strike till the very end.

Turn-Stop-Whip (but in one fluid motion which is the hard part:)).

watch how early he rotates and how quiet his shoulders are at release
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFh2JqrOsak

So i need to stop my shoulder turn consciously when my torso faces the net. Till that moment, my arms shouldn't move and by the time the turn stops, arms should be launched, right ?

dominikk1985 01-12-2013 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isilra (Post 7113559)
So i need to stop my shoulder turn consciously when my torso faces the net. Till that moment, my arms shouldn't move and by the time the turn stops, arms should be launched, right ?

Well it does not always perfectly stop but it does slow down a lot.

I do this pretty naturally because I learned this as I did discus throwing. In discus throwing you learn to pull the left elbow back and down into the left rib and then suddenly stop that motion to create a "block" to throw against.

this pulling first accelerated the left shoulder and then fixes it so that you have something solid to pull against.

you can also feel that the shoulder rotation is increasing the stretch of the pec which is also slowing down the shoulders (till the arm stys back like an anchor).

this is the kinetic chain:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNe_pFZrsA

isilra 01-12-2013 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7114280)
Well it does not always perfectly stop but it does slow down a lot.

I do this pretty naturally because I learned this as I did discus throwing. In discus throwing you learn to pull the left elbow back and down into the left rib and then suddenly stop that motion to create a "block" to throw against.

this pulling first accelerated the left shoulder and then fixes it so that you have something solid to pull against.

you can also feel that the shoulder rotation is increasing the stretch of the pec which is also slowing down the shoulders (till the arm stys back like an anchor).

this is the kinetic chain:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNe_pFZrsA

Thank you for valuable information, seems a lot to work on :)

monomer 01-12-2013 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7114280)
Well it does not always perfectly stop but it does slow down a lot.

I do this pretty naturally because I learned this as I did discus throwing. In discus throwing you learn to pull the left elbow back and down into the left rib and then suddenly stop that motion to create a "block" to throw against.

this pulling first accelerated the left shoulder and then fixes it so that you have something solid to pull against.


you can also feel that the shoulder rotation is increasing the stretch of the pec which is also slowing down the shoulders (till the arm stys back like an anchor).

this is the kinetic chain:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNe_pFZrsA

This is interesting. I am not familiar with the details of discus throwing. I wonder how much of this technique would transfer to tennis? Pulling the off arm is commonly discussed with the FH but I don't think I have seen anyone discuss the stop/block.

I would like to see a thread dedicated to this. I think it would generate some good discussion.

WildVolley 01-12-2013 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7113533)
overturn is a signal for inefficient energy transfer. energy is transferred by stopping the earlier body parts in the kinetic chain.

that means the shoulders stop when the chest faces the net which causes the arm to whip through. the top players don't rotate with their shot but rotate early and delay their very fast arm strike till the very end.

Turn-Stop-Whip (but in one fluid motion which is the hard part:)).

watch how early he rotates and how quiet his shoulders are at release
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFh2JqrOsak

Excellent post.

If you aren't slowing shoulder rotation just prior to contact you're losing a lot of power that could be delivered to the ball. The shoulders need to slow prior to contact in order to maximize arm and ultimately racket acceleration.

A back and core researcher (name escapes me at the moment) claims that professional athletes were good at very quickly stiffening the core to help other parts of the body accelerate.

Practice rapidly accelerating the shoulders but then trying to actively slow their turning when they are almost parallel to the net (assuming you're hitting down the middle).

isilra 01-12-2013 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildVolley (Post 7114750)
Excellent post.

If you aren't slowing shoulder rotation just prior to contact you're losing a lot of power that could be delivered to the ball. The shoulders need to slow prior to contact in order to maximize arm and ultimately racket acceleration.

A back and core researcher (name escapes me at the moment) claims that professional athletes were good at very quickly stiffening the core to help other parts of the body accelerate.

Practice rapidly accelerating the shoulders but then trying to actively slow their turning when they are almost parallel to the net (assuming you're hitting down the middle).

That is why i love this game and learning about it's stuff. Everything you do about tennis is also valid for other various sports, and the opposite. I get so excited about learning something about two handed backhand by watching a golf instruction video. Even when you fight with somebody, (which i have never done for years) i think you can hurt him by using the kinetic chain, just a forehand motion without a racquet in your hands lol.

Thank you and dominikk for there valuable informations.

isilra 01-12-2013 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7114280)
Well it does not always perfectly stop but it does slow down a lot.

I do this pretty naturally because I learned this as I did discus throwing. In discus throwing you learn to pull the left elbow back and down into the left rib and then suddenly stop that motion to create a "block" to throw against.

this pulling first accelerated the left shoulder and then fixes it so that you have something solid to pull against.

you can also feel that the shoulder rotation is increasing the stretch of the pec which is also slowing down the shoulders (till the arm stys back like an anchor).

this is the kinetic chain:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFNe_pFZrsA

I was shadow swinging and tried the left elbow thing. Now i realize exactly what you mean. When you pull your left elbow/shoulder back, your right side need to follow due to torso stretching and this pushes your hitting side in an order, easy shot. I also realize why all the pros pull their non hitting arm back before making the hit. I always thought they do it for better timing but now everything is clear, i mean everything. Thank you again.

dominikk1985 01-12-2013 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monomer (Post 7114428)
This is interesting. I am not familiar with the details of discus throwing. I wonder how much of this technique would transfer to tennis? Pulling the off arm is commonly discussed with the FH but I don't think I have seen anyone discuss the stop/block.

I would like to see a thread dedicated to this. I think it would generate some good discussion.

pros do stop the arm they are not pulling it till it hits the back fence:).

IMO the elbow should never get behind the shoulder line, try to pull it more against "the front of the side of the body":) and also keep your hand slightly in front of the back shoulder.

http://www.optimumtennis.net/images/...and-tennis.jpg

monomer 01-12-2013 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominikk1985 (Post 7115458)
pros do stop the arm they are not pulling it till it hits the back fence:).

IMO the elbow should never get behind the shoulder line, try to pull it more against "the front of the side of the body":) and also keep your hand slightly in front of the back shoulder.

http://www.optimumtennis.net/images/...and-tennis.jpg

Agreed. The kinetic chain is discussed every time the forehand is mentioned. The arm pull back is always discussed but the "stop" never seems to be mentioned.

dominikk1985 01-15-2013 12:49 PM

look at this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq_Eq_MvoaI

think more about pulling that left arm in and tightening that left side up then swinging that arm around and back. of course the move will first start around but then it will pull in to the rib and tighten up there.


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